r/singapore Oct 21 '21 Silver 1 Helpful 1 Wholesome 2

A sensible view of COVID-19 and restrictions. Serious Discussion

There is so much rage-posting on Singapore's subreddit with how we are being restricted in living a normal life and how governance is utterly incompetent especially compared to the handling of the pandemic in western countries. I think people are forgetting that COVID-19 is NOT your average flu and a lot of western countries have branded giving up as "freedom!". The UK and many such countries are now living with the consequences and are pushed past the limit of coping with severe cases. Looking at the number of daily deaths and those requiring isolation and special care (ICU, beds or oxygen) should be a huge concern to any sensible person. I repeat, COVID-19 is NOT your average flu.

I am 36, not the healthiest and am glad that we even have some sort of restrictions and masking in Singapore. Trust me, the restrictions hurt me more than your average gymbro because I lost my job as a musician to COVID-19 and have a tough time now coping financially. Looking at our daily statistics though, it's evident that we have a significant amount of (even) fully-vaccinated individuals succumbing to the illness daily. These were folks that believed in vaccination and still got killed by the virus, not the obstinate anti-vaxxer. In fact, I'm in for even more restrictions because I don't want our taxed healthcare workers to have more work and end up throwing in the towel. The plea here is to stop thinking about your selfish little lives and spare a thought for others who have to live with the consequences of your demands.

People like me may not be generally vocal about it on forums and such (because we can't be bothered to), but I am one of those that's actually pro-lockdown now that we have statistics of our bed and ICU capacity which is approaching cap. Has the Singaporean government handled COVID-19 in a way that I'd like them to? Of course not cough lupsup KTV cough. I am however, glad that many of them haven't quit yet and are more tolerant than myself when it comes to facing online hate that's personally targeted at them on a daily basis. Let's not forget that one of the top comments on Reddit when extension of restrictions were announced yesterday was "stabilise your kukuhead ah!" or something of that nature. I urge the mature and sensible individuals in our community to downvote such comments and reduce their visibility. COVID-19 is NOT your average flu and we are all in a no-win scenario here. If not eating out in a big group helps the caregivers in any little way, that's a small price to pay for me.

0 Upvotes

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u/saintlyknighted SG Covidiot Oct 21 '21

I think the main point is that there just doesn't seem to be an exit. Sure, we may grumble for now and pay the small prices, but we've already been paying them for 1.5 years, and based on the current outlook that's not gonna end anytime soon, and that's why everyone's pissed off. A lot less people will be frustrated if we somehow had the ability to say "this will end in 2 months for sure, then everything will be going back to normal" but we don't - and it just seems that anytime we attempt reopening, the healthcare system is gonna collapse, and if it's collapsing we won't be continuing with reopening, so there's just no end in sight. If you can say that you don't mind paying the price for another 3 years then good on you, but you can bet that many people won't have that kind of patience anymore. You can only expect people to make sacrifices for so long, and seems like we're already reaching that tipping point (and the MMTF knows it too).

Applying social restrictions also has diminishing returns. They were always meant to be a temporary measure (flattening the curve) but the longer we go on the longer we seem to rely on them as sort of a semi-permanent tool, and yet because of pandemic/compliance fatigue (for which I think it's unreasonable to expect 100% compliance all the time forever) and asymptomatic transmission, social restrictions are getting less and less effective, as we're seeing with the stabilisation phase + lockdowns in Australia. There's an increasing disconnect in the restrictions and what they're supposed to achieve. I wish I could say that not eating out in a big group helps the healthcare workers a lot, but realistically spread is still gonna happen within households at an alarming rate nonetheless.

Furthermore, I guess we have the benefit of hindsight, but the government sold the idea of vaccination very hard to get people to get jabbed, but because of that now many people feel betrayed. We were promised a return to normal if people get vaccinated, and yet now a group of 3 fully-vaccinated individuals can't even meet outdoors, and if it's not as safe as it can be now I don't know how much more, god forbid we require a negative ART test to even leave the house soon. Can't blame people for being pissed off over this.

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u/maybethisnameisfree Oct 21 '21

Also if we ever want to 'reopen' in the future, the virus will spread through the population. With these measures or any lockdown we will only delay the inevitable. Western countries are already way further in that process. They haven't given up, they have come to terms with that reality.

12

u/saintlyknighted SG Covidiot Oct 21 '21

I'm actually of the impression that the government has already accepted this (see PM Lee's speeches) even if they don't seem to want to get anyone else to acknowledge it. Rather, the challenge they're facing is how to let the virus spread through the population without causing healthcare overload. I'm far from a public health expert, but from my layman's point of view, this would only be possible if a certain level of restrictions is kept for a decently long time to keep cases at a certain stable number until the majority is infected, while simultaneously ramping up healthcare capacity to deal with the persistently high load and any surges. However, this doesn't seem possible now because restrictions don't seem to be able to stem the tide anymore, and it also seems like our healthcare capacity has both not been ramped up enough and is also limited in how much it can grow. So it increasingly seems like a healthcare overload (which so many other countries have gone through) is inevitable, which is both abhorrent and an incredibly tough pill to swallow. I hope we can avoid that, but it really seems like that's the light that OYK was talking about, the floodlights of the healthcare overload train heading straight for us.

1

u/caritas6 Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

A lot of western countries have accepted that their healthcare system will be in a state of semi-failure for some time to come. We haven’t reached that point yet. I don’t even know if we should since we can, regardless of how unhappy people are, carry on with restrictions for a while to keep our healthcare system functional.

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u/gonknoggin Oct 21 '21

Of course, the MMTF knows but will it make a difference - at least in the short/midterm? It's not like anything is going to happen, regardless of what societal restrictions they enact or loosen up. The media will largely just regurgitate what's been said in the press conferences and, with few exceptions, provide a little perspective. Sure, there is the occasional opinion piece and the usual local experts providing some viewpoint, which is great to hopefully educate readers but does it have an impact? Those experts even said that opening up to more diners for instance would likely have very little impact if any at all. A few months back, it was the same experts that said that any further opening/tightening of measures is mostly a political decision now.

The next elections are far away, you won't have any public demonstrations or protest like in many other countries, no real discourse in the media either. The MTF probably has some KPIs in mind and those seem to differ from what many here in this sub would like to see instead. I get it, their job is tough, having to make literal life and death decisions but that's the role they choose.

Obviously, they need to have a bigger picture in mind, not just what some of us here think and would like to see; and the HCW problem seems to be a serious issue, but the roots of this problem also go deeper than Covid-19, it just really comes to light now in a situation of serious strain on the system (this is not a problem unique to SG, other countries had similar experiences).

The lack of clear and precise communication is a real issue though. They have literally hundreds and thousands of people working for them but no one is empowered to provide professional communications council? I don't get it. I don't know SG politics enough but I also don't understand how the PM can (at least towards the public) be so hands-off? Isn't it him where the buck stops? I keep reading he doesn't want to tarnish his legacy, really, I mean come on! I'm not saying he should throw the MTF under the bus but he must also see that things are not always going as intended and when he does a speech and publicly says we should not be afraid of Covid and then 30 minutes later in the MTF press conference they say Covid is a scary disease - no wonder public is confused and starts losing trust.

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u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Thanks for the well-worded post. There is definitely no end in sight for this, worldwide. And whatever is decided and acted on or lack thereof will incur anger from one community or the other. What I'm personally hoping for is for people to be courteous when they are angry, and not resort to mongering hate and escalation of emotions just because things are not going their way. It hasn't gone mine - at all but I'm not telling Ong Ye Kung / Lawrence Wong to go suck a dick and die.

10

u/saintlyknighted SG Covidiot Oct 21 '21

There is definitely no end in sight for this, worldwide.

Well technically there is, it just comes at a cost of a high death toll. And just by virtue of existing, comparing to and seeing the West being able to move on makes people really agitated, and the longer time goes on, the more appealing such a cost will seem to some, even if it seems inhumane to many people. And truth be told the longer this situation drags on the less I can blame them.

As for being courteous, I always do try to consider the big picture even if I'm more partial towards reopening but ultimately this is an online platform and an echo chamber, more extreme views will naturally gravitate and get bounced around here so it's to be expected really. And from what I observed, it's usually the major update posts (e.g. announcement of no dine-in) that will bring out the worst, most other Covid news/discussion posts are still relatively civil (with exceptions of course).

-12

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

We can't be sure that a high death toll will lead to the end. The high death toll may lead to even higher death tolls and no one can be certain about that one way or another. People have to admit there's no solution to this pandemic and it isn't a solved case and buying time may wear people out, but is still a valid approach with substantial benefits.

3

u/UncomfortablePrawn Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

To add on to what the OP said - it isn't just that fact that there is no end in sight, what makes it worse is that we feel like we have been promised an end in sight multiple times, and each time that end has been taken away just as we were about to reach it.

The govt started off with saying that they wanted to target 2/3 vaccinations by National Day. The number seemed like such a pivotal number that people put high expectations on it. Then this number got revised to 80%.

Okay, it sucks. But it's just hold on for another two more months and maybe we can be free, right? Wrong, we're at 85% now and not only are restrictions not getting better, they're worsening.

So I think people are getting sick of feeling like they've been promised a target, and then when the target is hit, the target is changed. Betrayal is probably the most apt word to describe this. The thing about communications is, you don't even have to say it explicitly. As long as the people have the impression that this is what your message says (even if it doesn't say it) that's the message that people receive. The government can defend themselves by saying that they never explicitly said that we could go full out open up when we hit 2/3 vaccines or 80% vaccines. And that's true, they didn't. But that's not the perception people got.

Can you blame the people? It is just basic conditioning at this point. No rational human being is going to keep sacrificing their own well being for nothing - which is what it feels like at this point. At the start of the pandemic, people were willing to sacrifice for the greater good because they felt like it was just a short-term sacrifice, and we can see the benefits later on. But right now? We are sacrificing and sacrificing endlessly, and nothing is changing. Which rational decision maker is going to continue sticking to the measures? If you do everything right and you're still getting screwed for it, why bother do things right anymore? You might as well not try, and the outcome is the same, but you lose nothing.

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u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I agree the ones in governance have been trolling and trying to save their political careers. Their comms have also been a nightmare when real professionals should be handling it. The fact is, they haven't done anything to reasonably expand the care facilities to handle the outcome of their neither-here-nor-there strategy and now our healthcare workers face the brunt of their decisions.

At this juncture, it is actually considerate to buy time until everybody gets their shit together. People are misunderstanding my post and fabricating truths by thinking I'm pro-government when I think they are clowns too. The fact is, at this point, restrictions are NOT a logically bad way to mitigate damage and people refuse to see that and only view it as a blatant threat to their freedom and choose to word things very angrily online and perpetuate hate.

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u/singxpat Oct 21 '21

I’m in Spain at the moment and you know, life is pretty much back to normal. Apart from mandatory masks indoors there’s really no other restrictions in place. Many people still voluntarily wear masks outdoors too. No idiotic QR codes or paranoid tracing, no bans on music or events. And it works, there’s less cases than Singapore.

Of course there were lot of “waves” in Europe previously. But one thing I’ve realised is that Singapore somehow thinks it did such a marvellous job while other countries gave up. They didn’t give up but were just realistic. Waves cannot be avoided. Singapore will deal with same later on, just artificially delayed. The price for this will be complete destruction of social life. Results however will be same in terms of cases and ICU.

Govt pushed a really bad deal on everyone. It really is worst of both worlds.

10

u/whatsnewdan Oct 21 '21

Govt pushed a really bad deal on everyone. It really is worst of both worlds.

This is basically my frustration with this whole middle of the road approach. If you walk in the middle of the road, confirm you would be run down by a car!

77

u/ham_rain carrot cake is better than carrot 🍰 Oct 21 '21 Wholesome

we even have some sort of restrictions and masking in Singapore.

I think most folks here will agree that some basic restrictions like indoor masking are needed. What is ridiculous is splitting up households from dining in, no background music, no alcohol after 10.30, extremely clunky contact tracing registration procedures and processes. There is a middle ground between no restrictions and what we have today, and I for one think we should be loosening the ineffective ones.

I lost my job as a musician to COVID-19 and have a tough time now coping financially

I'm sorry for your loss, and hope you are doing well. I am wondering though if you think that not having live music is in any meaningful way helping manage Covid cases, and if so, is it worth the pain you are going through?

it's evident that we have a significant amount of (even) fully-vaccinated individuals succumbing to the illness daily

The vast majority of them are seniors with underlying medical conditions. Every death is personal and deserves to be mourned, but we should not lose sight of the fact that Covid is not the only thing causing deaths out there. Vaccines were never meant to be 100% effective and even with all the vaccinated deaths we are seeing now, the overall efficacy against death is still well north of 90%. And this should only improve as boosters are rolled out.

I don't want our taxed healthcare workers to have more work and end up throwing in the towel

I agree with you on this but I disagree on the approach. The government needs to communicate better instead of the constant swinging between "endemic, live as per normal" and "so scary, very risk, must restrict". And I'd even be OK with the restrictions if the government had a clear plan about how they are going to be used in order to expand capacity and reduce loads on healthcare workers. Endless restrictions while telling us to "have faith" is incredibly dismissive and ineffective.

stop thinking about your selfish little lives

Cool. Because the government and society has demonstrated so well that they actually care about our selfish little lives.

17

u/SnooPeripherals5901 Oct 21 '21

Hey don't forget mental health is a thing too, soon you're gonna have both a physical AND mental health crisis

10

u/ham_rain carrot cake is better than carrot 🍰 Oct 21 '21

Very optimistic of you to put this in the future tense. I can't speak to overall statistics but at a personal level, I've been comforting my partner for the past few nights as they have had nightmares, breakdowns and panic attacks about the intense blurring of work and personal life, not being able to meet family or friends or just live somewhat normally.

3

u/SnooPeripherals5901 Oct 21 '21

My mental health has gone downhill during this pandemic and tbh with this latest announcement I feel even more helpless. I started dreaming about work even....wfh makes ppl think u be on standby every minute of the day... :"(

1

u/ham_rain carrot cake is better than carrot 🍰 Oct 21 '21

Hope you feel better, and seek help if you need it. Try and take some time off if possible and disconnect when and where you can. Not that it matters much, but I think a lot of us are feeling the strain and fatigue of the restrictions to varying degrees so you can always reach out if you just want to chat.

12

u/maybethisnameisfree Oct 21 '21

Fully agree, OP was being very condescending. His struggles or anyone else's aren't my struggles. We have kids growing up completely isolated with little social interactions and friends. This will be even a bigger problem in a few years.

-28

u/Ryzier Oct 21 '21

No alcohol after 22:30 was a consequence of the Little India riots. Nothing to do with Covid.

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u/ham_rain carrot cake is better than carrot 🍰 Oct 21 '21

That is incorrect. Not serving alcohol at convenience stores and consuming it in public places after 10.30 was a consequence of the Little India riots through the Liquor Control Act. Not serving it at restaurants and bars was a consequence of Covid restrictions through the Covid-19 Act.

-2

u/Ryzier Oct 21 '21

I stand corrected. Still what’s so bad about the 22:30 end to alcohol?

Can you technically game the system but making a last order before 22:30 or do the eateries clear then away?

2

u/ham_rain carrot cake is better than carrot 🍰 Oct 21 '21

Most eateries have last orders before then and they are very vigilant about the 10.30 rule because they can be penalized for any breaches.

The larger point is not about why the rule is bad, but why the rule exists in the first place. Is it proven that people are staying out longer beyond 10.30 and therefore transmitting more, despite the 2 pax limit and perhaps more than what household transmission is? It might have made sense previously when you needed social interaction to really boost case numbers but I can't imagine this particular rule being the one that's holding off a massive surge in cases.

From my experience working in tech, this somewhat resembles code smell. The rules themselves are not completely flawed but when you examine what they are supposed to be doing, it indicates an overall weak design of the underlying rules which were designed for a different low-case scenario.

-1

u/Ryzier Oct 21 '21

The counter perspective is that it is so insignificant that the authorities have not reviewed it yet.

In other words, a legacy feature that has been overlooked.

5

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

Pre covid no alcohol doesn't apply to establishments with liquor licenses. This includes clubs, bars, pubs, restaurants, lounges, beer gardens, etc.

6

u/scythentic Oct 21 '21

Thats just in public, bars were still allowed to operate beyond 22:30 which they can't anymore.

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u/MisoMesoMilo Senior Citizen Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

As a family member of someone who recently urgently needed medical care, I was very grateful that the healthcare system has not been overwhelmed yet. The pain of losing someone dear to you because the resources were diverted to save a person higher on the triage list is very painful and maddening.

Everyone's circumstance is different but when you are at the mercy of the healthcare system, your perspective will change quickly.

19

u/knimnig Oct 21 '21

Your last paragraph hits hard. As someone who’s suddenly had health issues over the past year, I’m thankful I can still get appointments to get them checked out.

People really take health and accessibility for granted sometimes.

5

u/wyngit teh c gao siu dai halia peng Oct 21 '21

Eh no offense, but that's not how triage works? If your family member really needs the resources and even if they are scarce, triage when working properly will ensure that they would get it to you and you will be prioritized if it is indeed a life threatening emergency.

If anything, the current policy of prioritizing triage for mild COVID cases should be worrying. Hopefully this is changing, but our hospitalization rates are still way too high compared to equivalent developed nations with much lower vax rates.

On the flip side, as someone whose family member is dealing with likely terminal disease, the idea that I can't even eat out with them and visit their favorite places before a critical surgery in December is quite crushing. All of us are vaxxed, parents with boosters and yet... oh well.

1

u/MisoMesoMilo Senior Citizen Oct 21 '21

I am referring to the case where healthcare resources are so overwhelmed and the doctors literally choose which person to give the last ventilator. This has happened in countries at peak covid.

3

u/wyngit teh c gao siu dai halia peng Oct 21 '21

Yes and this happened prevaccine and is currently happening to countries and regions where there's high vaccine hesitancy. If you're concerned about your loved ones, get them vaccinated. We have that to be grateful for at least.

And convince people to not jam up the healthcare system unnecessarily with any slight hint of having Covid, especially if you are in low risk demographics and/or vaccinated.

2

u/13lackant Lao Jiao Oct 21 '21

i think one thing we tend to take for granted in SG is the availability of healthcare - i’m fairly certain that if i’m suddenly hit with a heart attack, there’s likely to be an ambulance available to rescue me at any time. and i’m not sure if the same can be said about western countries that allowed their system to be overwhelmed for the sake of freedom.

most of us on reddit probably aren’t in the risk group for sudden life threatening medical conditions, but i would like to have that peace of mind and security if i were.

5

u/hornyolebustard Oct 21 '21

I would like to chip in my two cents worth. I agree that it is better not to resort to abuse in this subreddit, but this is the Internet and people know that they are hidden. Also you have to understand people's frustration. For me, I have become lethargic and almost apathetic about the whole situation. I have had my jabs and a booster and still no change.

And at times I feel selfish. Who wouldn't. My wife and I have a place in JB that we haven't seen since March last year. I loved my garden and haven't been able to see how it is developing. I had just started a new job up there helping a friend set up a language school. That has gone and I have spent my 64th and 65th birthday in Singapore knowing that there is little chance of me working again. It sucks. Everyone is feeling it. I am thankful that I am healthy. I miss the old normal and cannot suggest how to get back to anywhere near it hence the lethargy and apathy.

I hope that everyone here, whatever your views, keeps in mind that everything passes. The situation is difficult for all of us. Just try to be kind wherever possible.

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Definitely, everyone is feeling how sucky the entire situation is. Just because I see some sensibilities in extending the restrictions doesn't mean I like it. People do want to rage first before discourse though and that is exactly the attitude I hope to address. Or at least to let some people know there are non-vocal people who hold a different stance than the upvoted norm on Reddit. Really sad to hear that your business and place in JB have to suffer through this sir/ma'am. Thanks for being kind and sensible even though you could've chosen otherwise :)

16

u/scythentic Oct 21 '21

Im just curious, at what stage would it be acceptable for you for domestic restrictions to ease? Or are you just perfectly fine with never going back to normal ever again?

-42

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I would have tanked our economies drastically and iron-fisted through enforcement to make sure we have 0 cases so we can go back to normal eventually. Or now that that's no longer an option - to do a 2 weeks absolutely free & maskless / 2 weeks lockdown cycle every single month or something similar.

22

u/dontdownvotemebruh Oct 21 '21

What a retarded statement.

41

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

Just stay as a musician. Don't ever run for politics or a business

4

u/NoBodyYouKnow0 Oct 21 '21

To respond to this,

I would have tanked our economies drastically and iron-fisted through enforcement to make sure we have 0 cases so we can go back to normal eventually.

0 cases is not realistic, and close to impossible. With the VTL lanes opening up, and constant transit of people across our borders (eg. Work travel, supply chain movements) we'd have to completely close the country to push it near 0, and keep it that way. The economy would collapse completely.

Or now that that's no longer an option - to do a 2 weeks absolutely free & maskless / 2 weeks lockdown cycle every single month or something similar.

This is also unrealistic, 2 weeks absolutely free would imo, cause immense strain on our already suffering healthcare system, and 2 weeks lockdown would not be sufficient time for the healthcare coverage to recover. Im not too sure on the feasibility on lockdown cycles, but it might be worth looking into should it show promise

-10

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I'd personally be more for 3 week cycles but that'd be too confusing for people to follow. Thing is, everybody has what they think is right in their heads, I'm not even claiming mine to be the best solution, nor do I have the hubris to believe it to be. People just love to be triggered though.

6

u/NoBodyYouKnow0 Oct 21 '21

Me neither, I'm no expert at making policies or decisions for the country. However, I do feel that the measures are stifling and suffocating (after such a long period of time), and its quite understandable that people are upset.

Reddit is a social platform and of course, people will share their opinions and views. The consensus here on /sg seems to be pro-opening up, hence the angry responses. Would I consider it rage-posting? Perhaps, but I wouldn't say its without merit.

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u/[deleted] Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 30 '21

[deleted]

10

u/ChocoParrot Oct 21 '21

It's classic idealism - thinking that blocking out everything else that doesn't fully agree with one's worldview would create a utopia. When your opponent gets shot down, take the high ground to discredit them and say that you're saying the truth, being pragmatic/realistic/sensible, blah blah blah, but when it's the other way round just block them out, and say that they're being negative and use emotional appeal, etc.

6

u/thisis4investing Oct 21 '21

That’s cuz he’s a musician /s

14

u/NothingAlternative28 Oct 21 '21

My question would be what is your exit plan then? Do we continue to live like this forever? Is that worth it? If you are old you may only have a few good years left before your health go down. I would not want to be stuck at home forever. If you are young you are missing all the most important part of life building social skills, enjoying your best years.

It makes sense they try to protect everyone but seriously asking family who live together to eat by table or 2 when they go out is just insanely ridiculous. And I ll pass on the no music, no alcohol and whatever else they restrict us.

This will not go away and unfortunately many people will die. We cannot cure everyone, we cannot protect everyone. There are many way we can die everyday and now COVID is just one more. If we are vaccinated, we follow some rules like mask when indoors, stay home if sick then I don't think can do much more.

Anyway, I am geniously interested to know how people who praise restrictions see the future in Singapore. What would it make you comfortable to have dinner with 5 people. Let ' s be crazy and say dinner 8 people

-18

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

My exit plan would have been to tank our economy drastically and strive for 0 cases so we can live normally after. Or nuke China the moment the world found out they were hiding a world-threatening virus. Thing is, everyone has what they think is best in their own heads when it comes to this pandemic - including the MMTF. Problem is, no one wants to be convinced that someone else may be right.

14

u/-_af_- Taxi!!! Oct 21 '21

Problem is, no one wants to be convinced that someone else may be right.

What makes you think you are right then? What if the right thing for the greater good is for a few to die? Would the few dictate what is right then? If the ministers don't have the mettle to make tough decisions like this, I fear the day we go to war and we lose the war as we refuse to do what is right for the country

0

u/botsland Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21

It's how you frame it.

Is it right to let the elderly, who spent their lives building this country, die for the sake of Singapore's economy?

Or is it right to continue restrictions just to protect retired elderly even at the expense of the mental health of the rest of the country?

10

u/-_af_- Taxi!!! Oct 21 '21

Is it right to let the elderly, who spent their lives building this country, die for the sake of Singapore's economy?

Lol. Given that their life expectancy have already exceeded what was forecasted at their birth, I would say each day is gift already. They have maximised their returns from nation building while those currently building is getting fucked with poor returns.

7

u/botsland Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21

If we based it on logic, we shouldn't continue sacrificing the economy and livelihoods for a bunch of old retired people that is not even contributing to the economy anymore and have practically lived most of their life already. Shutting down the country for a disease that has 98-99% mild to no symptoms makes no sense.

But it's hard not to sound like a crude coldhearted monster. After all, how can the government claim we should build a caring and compassionate society while they are advocating for the 'some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make' approach to covid

4

u/-_af_- Taxi!!! Oct 21 '21

we based it on logic

Our ministers say we should stick to facts. If this is the fact, then we need to be realistic.

how can the government claim we should build a caring and compassionate society while they are advocating for the 'some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make' approach to covid

Your biggest mistake is thinking that the government should do as it preach. Things like PDPA and Employment Act also don't apply to government, why should this be any different?

1

u/botsland Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21

Our ministers say we should stick to facts. If this is the fact, then we need to be realistic.

They are. Lee Hsien Loong said that some will unfortunately die in his recent speech. The problem is that even though the govt can tell people that we will see death cases rise due to opening up, that still won't stop people from feeling emotional and demanding lockdowns to prevent these deaths.

Look outside reddit, many are still calling for lockdowns after seeing all these recent spike in deaths and they are blaming the govt for still allowing such 'loose' measures

why should this be any different?

This is literally a matter of life and death

2

u/-_af_- Taxi!!! Oct 21 '21

The problem is that even though the govt can tell people that we will see death cases rise due to opening up, that still won't stop people from feeling emotional and demanding lockdowns to prevent these deaths.

Hence do what is right for the country not people like you calling for lock down (which you now agree is illogical and also implies non sensible)

This is literally a matter of life and death

WSHA also exempts the government from prosecution

2

u/botsland Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

not people like you calling for lock down

You are preaching to the choir, I also want to reopen the country. It's just that I am finding it hard to reconcile how drastic and isolated the pro lockdown and pro endemic groups are here in Singapore. Everyone is mad at the government but for way different reasons. Pro endemic people are mad the govt isn't doing the sensible approach of reopening up fully. Pro lockdown people are mad that the govt is willing to sacrifice lives for the economy and failing to understand why Singapore can't continue to lockdown forever.

I feel like this sub downvoting any pro-lockdown people or threads is not doing any favors. It's just creating a bubble whereby any moderates or pro-lockdown people are going to be driven away and there can't be any discussion to reconcile such differences

5

u/realdurpturdle Oct 21 '21

Very "sensible" view indeed, im glad we have people like you still supporting the government

1

u/XirallicBolts Oct 21 '21

So with a tanked economy, supply lines locked down, people forced to stay inside, etc... how do you plan on preventing things like starvation? I'm willing to bet it's not possible for everybody to stock up on 3 weeks worth of food simultaneously,

15

u/aub_ao Oct 21 '21

You're living in denial. Everyone, literally everyone, will be exposed to COVID eventually. It cannot be avoided (except in absolute extremis via complete separation from humanity). COVID zero doesn't exist. People need to stop hoping for it and accept reality. A return to 2019 normality, eventually, is the only viable option.

The restrictions are inflicting another kind of invisible toll on people. Many millions haven't seen family overseas for two years or longer. Many businesses have failed. Many people have been pushed into poverty, depression, ill health, domestic abuse. No one has any idea of the long term effects of forcing preschool children to wear masks, and to interact with teachers who are all wearing masks, so they don't learn how to read facial expressions at a key moment in their development. Careers of our youngest and brightest graduates are suffering through lack of direct face to face mentorship and networking opportunities. The population is shrinking and birth rates declining, accelerating the working age dependency problem, which was already serious before COVID.

All of these costs, and more, for a virus that is no more serious than the average flu once you are vaccinated for the vast majority of people.

4

u/ItsallgoneLWong21 Oct 21 '21

This is the thing I’ve never understood with kiasi/kiasu, and I’d actually be really grateful if someone could explain to me.

It’s very very rare in life that there is ever a zero sum situation between risk on the one hand and no risk on the other hand. Generally by avoiding risk in one area you create it in another. The Govt seems to be extremely risk averse in its Covid response in terms of immediate Covid deaths but I would say it’s being extremely reckless in terms of other risks: mental health, economic stability, Singapore’s reputation, childhood development etc etc.

The Govt here likes to paint the reopening of western countries as throwing caution to the wind in the pursuit of ‘freedom’. I’ve no doubt that plays a part, but I’d argue those countries are also just doing better than Singapore in terms of seeing the big picture in terms of risks.

1

u/lkmk 9d ago

We can't return to normal unless we can do so without hospitals filling up... so not soon.

23

u/ChocoParrot Oct 21 '21

Another apologist post.

I am however, glad that many of them haven't quit yet and are more tolerant than myself when it comes to facing online hate that's personally targeted at them on a daily basis. Let's not forget that one of the top comments on Reddit when extension of restrictions were announced yesterday was "stabilise your kukuhead ah!" or something of that nature. I urge the mature and sensible individuals in our community to downvote such comments and reduce their visibility.

Has any politician in the world actually quit solely because of online hate over mishandling of Covid? If they can't tahan the hate/whatever you wanna call it, then don't be a politician in the first place? What, I thought our civil service was supposed to be able to run on autopilot? If our ministers are some of the world's most paid politicians, they're gonna be so fragile and have such a brittle ego to be unable to take criticism, constructive or otherwise? If they can't stand the public limelight, then don't be a politician in the first place? Nobody's forcing them to stand up there and make decisions what. They can resign and I'm pretty sure there's a crap ton of other people that'd just love to be up there either for prestige or whatever the hell their motivations are.

The plea here is to stop thinking about your selfish little lives and spare a thought for others who have to live with the consequences of your demands.

You do realise that no matter how much people kpkb here we're ultimately not the one making decisions, so whether or not they think inherently selfishly or not doesn't really affect everyone else on a scale those in power do right? The only time commoners can make decisions is through our vote - we throw the politicians we don't like out.

In fact, I'm in for even more restrictions because I don't want our taxed healthcare workers to have more work and end up throwing in the towel.

The sad thing is that the current situation of Covid as it stands right now with the overloaded ICUs is completely preventable on a fundamental scale. That is fact. Covid didn't just appear last night. It's been more than a year since the circuit breaker, and during that whole one year absolutely no soul has saw this situation coming? Nobody had the idea to actually increase healthcare capacity? Instead it was thought to be a better idea to sing Home to boost the morale of healthcare workers?

It's just such an idealistic approach to think that just by spreading some p o s i t i v i t y by not telling the truth things would be better. At the end of the day, who's the one who's tanking policy mistakes on Covid? It's the healthcare workers. The politicians don't have to wear N95 masks and go to ICU wards. Do they have rules over their head that roster when they can go overseas or not? In fact I thought someone was over in Italy a while ago maskless for some conference?

Right, so let's blindfold ourselves and lie through our very own teeth that politicians are doing a good job, and let's not blame them - after all, the online hate they're getting is far far worse than having to do overnight shifts in hospital ICU wards, being overworked to the brim, and having leave rostered. After all, deluding out some positivity could save the situation.

(The last paragraph was sarcasm.)

17

u/ArtichokeSmooth2934 Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Based on the chaotic fiasco we had in the past 18 months, I do believe most, if not all know that COVID-19 is not your average flu.

Let me attempt to speak for the majority of anti-lockdown. First of all, sorry that you lost your job to COVID. The virus spares no one, vaccinated or not. The betrayal of the government has put us in the spot of helplessness and fatigue. Our anger is justified where we were basically lied to. To be on the receiving end of the government’s “jest” having various definitions of our lockdown labels changing just to quell the community with no perceivable change whatsoever. It is frustrating. Based on past 18 months that we experienced, it is evident that they were not prudent enough to cater more ICU beds which is the basis of our stabilisation phase now. Worst of all, the knee jerking flip-flopping policies they construed out from a roulette wheel. The wheel of time only moves forward and that way forward (closest to normalcy) is to make it endemic which was what MMTF projected. But as they are, with the lack of preparation and bravery, we are delayed yet again.

The ramification of pushing it to endemism is clear that more deaths will be present. But everything has a price to pay. With preparation, strategy and a change of mindset we can certainly reduce that price to one that is easier to swallow. It is truly sad the number of people succumbing to the virus. However we just cannot standstill any longer. We just can’t.

Also, to speak for the, in your words “trolls”, don’t be harsh on them. It has been a tough time for all of us, it is probably a coping mechanism and well it does inject laughter all around (me personally, chuckled when I saw it). So just close your eyes, live and let live.

-9

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I don't think the MMTF made great decisions either, and also having politicians run the show is a direct conflict of interest. I am unhappy too, but I don't rage-post and encourage more rage directly at individuals.

7

u/ArtichokeSmooth2934 Oct 21 '21

This is the internet afterall. If you are looking for etiquette, this is hardly the place. Take care and keep safe brother. Hope all will be well soon, for all of us.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '21

[deleted]

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I upvoted your post cause you called me brainless and assumed who I voted for ;) Have a nice day!

3

u/sirfishball Oct 21 '21

In fact, I'm in for even more restrictions because I don't want our taxed healthcare workers to have more work and end up throwing in the towel.

What does OP propose then? A return to circuit breaker with total lockdown? Honestly, I think the ship for a return to circuit breaker has sailed. If the MMTF favoured a return to circuit breaker, it should have been implemented 1 month ago instead of the 'stabilisation period'. The purpose of a circuit breaker is to break or slow down the chain of transmission and it would require at least 1-2 months of circuit breaker for it to be effective, as you would need 2 weeks before there is visible results. Past circuit breaker has shown that it is very painful for all involved and MMTF is hesitant to implement another circuit breaker.

At the current R value, it would be a matter of time before the cases reach 5k and then 10k. What would happen then? More restrictions? The calls for a return to circuit breaker would only grow louder. However, that is not the way forward. Let's be realistic, 85%+- is probably the maximum vaccination rate after taking into account the anti-vaxxers, medically unable to take the vaccine and children aged 12 and below (until they are approved for vaccination). Our covid death rate is 264/158,587 = 0.167% and vaccination rate of 85% yet we are imposing restrictions in comparison to other countries with lower vaccination rates. Before you accuse me of not caring about people dying, every death is regrettable but to put it in perspective, the number of influenza deaths in Singapore in 2019 was 4,439 (20.8% of total deaths)(numbers extracted from MOH website).

MMTF should be braver and forge forward with the reopening and progression towards the long term plan of endemic living. It has been nearly 2 years and we should not continue living like this for the near future. It is contradictory that more VTLs have been opened but the restrictions persist. Maybe it is to provide an avenue for frustrated pent-up revenge travelling...

They should also stop reporting the number of asymptomatic cases inside the top-line total number of cases. The sheer number of cases will 'scare' the common folk when the daily number of cases are being reported.

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I don't disagree with your sentiments but I do also see the rationale why they are extending the status quo. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive but according to many Singapore Redditors it's open up or "fuck your mother".

3

u/Running_OnEmpty Oct 21 '21

The likelihood is, going by statements from OYK and PM Lee, we're all going to get COVID sooner or later. So, the people who are going to die from this virus will eventually die from this virus. Deaths are something we have to accept.

Are deaths horrible?... ehhh, depends on who you ask. But by delaying the inevitable, thereby risking basically all businesses and the mental health of ~90% of the population, for the possibility of saving some lives - many of whom supposedly refuse to help themselves to vaccines that would reduce their chances of dying by over 10 times - begs the question: what is the point?

As for "others who have to live with the consequences" - there are consequences to any action. Lockdown: deaths from suicide, mental illness, physical abuse and more. Open up: deaths from the virus. And in both cases, leave loved ones who'd have to deal with that.

But at the very least, with the latter, they can gather a support system, be with others who loved the same people and find a way to move on. The former? Just more of the same isolation until they too possibly become yet another number.

And dare I say the same of the healthcare system. Overwhelm it. Let the people die. Thereafter - a month to three, let's say - when cases finally stabilize, our healthcare workers can finally take their leave and rest and recuperate and push the system back to normal. Isn't that preferable to this constant, never-ending tightrope they're balancing on?

On a personal level, if you (or anyone else for that matter) are "not the healthiest", well then make a change. If it's not something you can change, like an underlying condition... well, read paragraph one.

2

u/XirallicBolts Oct 21 '21

Agreed.
People keep saying "0 deaths" but the simple fact is, some people will die no matter how much treatment they get. 100,000 people die of snakebites every year. It happens, unfortunately.

The majority of people will survive without treatment.
Some will survive with treatment, die without.
Some will die no matter what. You're only delaying the inevitable.

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I don't disagree with your sentiments. Thanks for wording it out nicely and coherently

3

u/Angryangmo Lao Jiao Oct 21 '21

This must be one of the most commented Posts with a negative voting… shows the sentiment of this sub right now

2

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Sub needs more rage!

29

u/aSingaporean From Malaysia Oct 21 '21

People aren’t just complaining about restrictions. There’s a bigger issue, they are complaining how we have fking clowns with clown-like policy-making. These clowns have a complete lack of oversight and strategy from the very start.

-21

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I am not a fan of their decisions either. They do have a lack of foresight, but to be absolutely honest - our clowns are not any worse than most clowns. Looking at the rest of the world, everybody is having trouble making country-wide decisions on how to handle the pandemic especially with dissenting voices that loud.

24

u/fish312 win liao lor Oct 21 '21

Do other countries have "safe distancing ambassadors?" Do they make people queue up at malls and every single restaurant to "check in" and "check out?" We can't increase number of medical resources for whatever reason so we turn to these dumb measures instead.

6

u/tolifeonline Oct 21 '21

Personally I think maybe they shd relook at some of the contract tracing measures. Since they are no longer tracking individual cases so I guess they need it more for data gathering now. But after so many months of doing that its prob good time to reassess if checking in/out is still neccessary at every shop or retail outlet.

Additionally masking at some outdoor locales(parks, exercise venues) rightfully also be reconsidered.

2

u/ThisTakesThePizza Oct 21 '21

SDA was a temporary measure to create jobs. Many ex Grab drivers/tour guides/tour buses are very grateful to have this job opportunity.

Imagine you are a mini bus owner. Saved up money for years, finally got enough money to buy a sweet new 13 seater bus to bring tour groups around. Covid hits, no more tourism, and you still got pay off so many things. You turn to driving Grab 6 for extra income. But money not enough to cover rental/petrol/living expenses. What did you do? Cut your losses, sell the bus, and find a FT. Which is what happened to a driver I talked to early in pandemic. He told me driving school bus is worst, parents don't pay on time and children often mess up his vehicle. So really no other options for him.

Also medical staff takes years to train, compared to SDAs that takes at most a few hours.

7

u/aSingaporean From Malaysia Oct 21 '21

Unfortunately, many other governments from the rest of the world have the guts and the balls to go through with their plan and policy. Unlike these clowns that comes up with half-ass covid measures for the sake of coming up with measures. Why? I have no idea, maybe it’s for some political reasons. Making decisions for the country is one thing, but you flipping your policy and stance every single second isn’t helping. Come up with a plan and stick to it, for God’s sake.

40

u/falkner97 New Citizen Oct 21 '21

Smlj

People are not just complaining about dining in for 2

Is our measure doesnt make any fking sense

They allow way too many things to be done with a ton more people including travel and yet they refuse a simple thing like dining in for a family together

Its as if govt is giving a tight slap to us peasant and saying you can continue to work while us on the ivory tower is going to travel and ignore this stupid rule of dining in

9

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '21

Government expecting us to have jobs and make babies, be interesting have hobbies.. and now they want us to be able to cook.

1

u/Cattofish Oct 21 '21

I think for the dining in part, it is just a blanket approach to cap at 2.

If they allow 5 dining in, perhaps friends from different household will meet, and if someone in that group tests positive, then it is more people in quarantine.

If they do 5 dining in for family, then the service staff gotta check IC for home address. Perhaps this may be in the near future since MMTF mentioned about looking into it.

Then I think adult children who moved out from their parent's place will kpkb becos different home address and can't eat together. 😕

1

u/BonkersMoongirl Oct 21 '21

It’s not acceptable. We sat in a restaurant on Sunday and I was puzzled the single chap was smiling so much at a baby at a table across the room and realised it was his daughter with his wife. How totally pointless and sad.

-29

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

SMLJ to you too kind sir/ma'am.

44

u/AdministrativeRub235 Oct 21 '21

Oh lordy lord, the title of this post is literally ownself praise ownself.

9

u/Iamrandom17 Oct 21 '21

i don’t think most sensible people here are saying that we want all restrictions lifted. most people agree that indoor masking should definitely stay on for a while and even outdoor masking because we are densely populated

however, certain restrictions don’t make sense at all because we feel that they hardly serve the purpose. not to mention, the mmtf has been very unclear about things making it even worse.

even if they want to have certain restrictions, they could at least tell us what the roadmap in the future is and what are the phases of easing restrictions after we ride through this wave but we get nothing to look forward to which makes it very frustrating

4

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Yea having politicians run this is a direct conflict of interest. I don't like their decisions and communications either.

8

u/SlurpyAss I EAT ASS Oct 21 '21

Even Australia is opening up and getting back to normal. Do we even have any ideas on when we are opening up at all?

17

u/jinhong91 Oct 21 '21

An actual sensible view of restrictions is that of Sweden. And they got the results to back it up unlike the clowns at the MMTF. They are fully open now and cases are low despite them having to contend with tje winter wave.

5

u/Twrd4321 Oct 21 '21

Sweden has 144 deaths per 100k. Singapore has 4.35 deaths per 100k. It is worth noting before the vaccine Sweden had hardly any restrictions. Mask mandates were brought in only in winter, so there was considerable spread.

4

u/botsland Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21

Looks at Sweden covid death rate vs Singapore covid death rate

-2

u/Ryzier Oct 21 '21

Nice job picking Sweden. A country that let many die unnecessarily in the first wave and whose epidemiologist that came up with the policy later expressed regret for his handling of cases.

They paid for it in blood.

9

u/AdministrativeRub235 Oct 21 '21

Tegnell never recanted his opposition to lockdowns.

What he did admit was a failure to protect residents of nursing homes - and all the restrictions on dining-in won't do you any good once the virus has gotten into those, as Singapore discovered in August and September this year.

0

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Sweden has a population density of 25 people per square kilometers. Singapore has 8358 per square kilometers. Don't be a tool and do the math. What works for them is very likely not going to work for us.

5

u/wyngit teh c gao siu dai halia peng Oct 21 '21

Please don't do the confusion of city density with country density.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_proper_by_population_density

We're not even on that list.

20

u/paddy_boomsticks Oct 21 '21

The only vaccinated people dying from covid are those with underlying health conditions.

-11

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

You obviously never read. Don't bullshit your way through life.

9

u/peniscat1 Oct 21 '21

But I think that's true? How many fully vaxxed people die of covid, and how many of those don't have pre-existing conditions? I don't recall seeing any.

-12

u/ThisTakesThePizza Oct 21 '21

Soon we'll see it. Be patient my boy. It could be you too.

2

u/Dapper_Height2782 Oct 21 '21

The problem is that we cannot know what policies to implement in the future until that day. We need communication.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

[deleted]

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Upvoted for the courtesy and love. Feel free to punch me on the streets too <3

5

u/thisis4investing Oct 21 '21

Imagine couching your own opinion as “a sensible view” and immediately downplay your interlocutors’ view as “insensible”.

The fucking hubris is huge.

6

u/PossibleConsistent77 Oct 21 '21

"Stop thinking about your selfish life and spare a thought for others"

This is human nature, doing what it takes to survive. I know I gonna be downvoted for this but reality no one give shits about our lives let alone think about others. We all want to live life normally as much as possible.

Deep inside we all want others to solve our covid problems but we don't want to be part of the equation to solve the issue because we have lifestyle that we cannot shut our lives to the virus.

13

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Done everything the government asked us to get.

  • Wear Mask
  • Get vaxxed
  • Follow their inane measures for the past 20 months.

What did we get in return? More inane measures because they have lost their plot

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Even if no one gives shits about my life, I choose to give shits and think about theirs (in this case, I mean I care about the healthcare workers, none of which are personally related to me).

6

u/YL0000 Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

I am 36, not the healthiest and am glad that we even have some sort of restrictions and masking in Singapore.

I'm also glad that we have the compulsory mask policy. (1) Unfortunately many young students and the elderly do not comply with this very well -- it is important that the spreaders wear the masks. Since people could be asymptomatic while transmitting the virus, everyone should wear a mask at least from the perspective of not passing the infection to others. (2) There should be some regulations on masks, such as requiring the masks to have a metal wire inside the plastic nose clip to ensure better fitting.

-2

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Definitely, enforcement is very lacking. Many people pull down their masks just to talk, cough and sneeze too. We should have made severe examples of them much earlier on. Now that people know there are no serious consequences, the mask is just there for show to prevent getting into trouble.

4

u/tenbre Oct 21 '21

I am not "anti-lockdown", nor am i too pleased with the latest press conference, which effectively didn't say much other than just continue status-quo.

I feel that much more can be done on vaccine-differentiated measures, or other measures to more thoroughly reduce the number of anti-vaxxers stressing the healthcare system. Targeted measures might be more effective than a useless press conference saying nothing.

I feel that much more needs to be done to educate the public and employers on how to manage and live with covid at home and in the workplace. This is lacking and there's a lot of anxiety and panic amongst those who experience covid in the family for the first time. This contributes to a desire to lockdown.

I feel that measures need to be loosened just slightly, so there's a form of progression instead of ending up with a big freedom day opening. I gather the VTLs have helped for many, but the VTL numbers are obviously small compared to the majority population.

I feel that the healthcare voices are pretty muted whether they are for or against the policies. Would definitely like to hear their stance. I can imagine it's conflicted and unclear.

I feel that many people are just maybe bored? These ones here sitting at home, in front of their computers, wishing they can go drinking, playing, enjoying life, while expecting somebody else to take care of the pandemic. It's a huge imbalance between a stressed healthcare system and a bored listless population. I'm spending some of my free time helping out and it does keep me really busy. Maybe those who are bored can do so instead. Be helpful, instead of adding more mental stress on the healthcare workers. Right now I imagine they are feeling like the public is forcing them to work more, opening up and throwing more patients their way, they feel that they cant go on leave because they have to save everyone and support the economy, they are the last bastion that cannot have time to leave their post while others go dine out and travel.

Reddit is obviously a pretty immature environment for discussions, more suitable for social justice posts and memes.

Take care and hope you get your music back.

2

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Definitely, does the government even hire a professional comms team? They seem to be ridiculously bad at it. And having politicians run the show is a direct conflict of interest when intelligent, unbiased healthcare professionals with no vested interests should be at the helm.

2

u/gonknoggin Oct 21 '21

Yes, the comms has been abysmal at times and I really wonder if they make some of this stuff up in real-time.

3

u/Angryangmo Lao Jiao Oct 21 '21

Ok… on to other topics like UFO sightings

-2

u/benjaminloh82 Oct 21 '21

Hear hear! I’m also reluctant to post on r/sg for fear of the “west is best” battalion shouting me down, but the amount of hoo-hah that gets bandied about because of masks and that we’re only allowed to sit two to a table is childish, petulant and ridiculous. If that’s the price we must pay to keep things under control, I pay it gladly.

5

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

×Hear hear! I’m also reluctant to post on r/sg for fear of the “west is best” battalion shouting me down, but the amount of hoo-hah that gets bandied about because of masks and that we’re only allowed to sit two to a table is childish, petulant and ridiculous. If that’s the price we must pay to keep things under control, I pay it gladly.

Can pay me SGD$5k per month for me stay at home? With an increment of 10% every year. I will lockdown forever for you.

Edit: Eh why downvote me. I thought you say you will gladly pay for it

EVERYBODY, FREE MONEY FROM BENJAMIN LOH. TAKE YOUR QUEUE NUMBER. I AM FIRST

-19

u/benjaminloh82 Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Straw man argument, we’re not in a Lockdown right now, are we? I’ve been to work every week since the reopening measures came in. You tell the folks on the MRT that they are in lockdown and they will laugh at you.

Lockdowns were used when required, as are all the measures proposed.

Edit: Ah, I see from your edit that you are one of those “west is best” trolls. Well, take my erstwhile reply and be happy with it as that’s all you will be getting from me.

2

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

Eh bro I thought you will gladly pay me for lockdown? Why flip Prata faster than MMTF

0

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

OK set ah. SGD5K every month. Every year 10% increment.

I will write to my MP everyday to ask for lockdown. I will ask my auntie, uncle, friends and dogs to spam lockdown emails to MP everyday. I will ask them to message you for their monthly rate

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

Just block the trolls haha

7

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Huh. I trolling? I thought Benjamin will be gladly pay me for lockdown so I state my rate loh

2

u/call_me_mond default Oct 21 '21

Sorry to hear about your plight. Definitely agree on alleviating the burden on our HCW and healthcare system in general.

But I think we are all just curious on certain matters. Maybe confused is a better word. We are eventually going to be living with the disease as endemic and we’re taking steps to get there. Yes, we might be Covid naive, because we stayed home, wore masks and took our jabs.

But at this point where we have one of the highest vaccine coverage, it’s kinda strange how 60 ~ people in ICU are overwhelming our healthcare system. Hearts out to them there, I don’t mean to dismiss them in any way but doesn’t this show that we did not have the foresight regarding this situation? Yes, I’m speaking from hindsight and yes it’s not possible to train doctors and nurses in the span of 1-2 years.

It’s not like they didn’t know this would eventually happen eg US, Europe etc faced it much earlier than us. So in that sense, wouldn’t it be better to seek for alternative strategies like maybe a vaccine mandate? Ok this is up for debate but that’s not the point.

Yes, the virus is fluid and ever changing but it honestly just seems like there’s no clear strategy to handling it. Again, if we are defeated by just 60 ~ people in ICU then there’s something very wrong. Even if we assume then everyone gets Covid eventually because we are shifting to living with Covid, that would take a few more years of restrictions which is honestly frightening. Just not sure what these restrictions are for, because honestly the healthcare system will struggle as long as we open up. But we cannot eradicate Covid at this point, so…

1

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

I totally agree, the whole strategy or lack thereof was borked from the start. We should have had more facilities / healthcare resources at this junction. With our current situation though, not opening up any further (ala buying time) is the only courteous thing we can do for the frontline workers at this point unless we want them to burnout even quicker.

1

u/call_me_mond default Oct 21 '21

Yeah.. just gonna be a cycle of opening up, cases rise and ICU goes up, then restrictions to make cases go down and hopefully ICU, and the cycle repeats. If the healthcare capacity doesn’t change, then what’s the point of all these ‘phases’? Honestly hearing PM mention just hundreds of cases as the new normal makes me lose hope given how transmissible delta is even with so much restrictions in place.

Being stuck in the middle btwn lockdown and opening up really sucks. Cannot lockdown, yet cannot open up because of hospital constraint, so what’s the end game? At the rate it’s going, restrictions will be in place much longer than NS lol

2

u/leisurely123 Oct 21 '21

im also pro lockdown because it is the fastest way to restart and fastest to go back to normalcy. our current restrictions doesnt seem to improve the situation

3

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

im also pro lockdown because it is the fastest way to restart and fastest to go back to normalcy. our current restrictions doesnt seem to improve the situation

Lockdown is not the fastest way to restart and fastest to go back to normalcy. The moment we reopen after lockdown, cases are going up again. Then we have to go lockdown again. Lockdown is just delaying the inevitable.

The fastest way to restart and fastest to go back to normalcy is to reopen fully and let the virus run through the entire population until the virus cannot find any new host to infect because everyone is already infected and has the antibodies.

0

u/leisurely123 Oct 21 '21

that is not normalcy if the hospital is overloaded, like now

5

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

If we agree that everyone will get covid at least once in their life, lockdowning is just delaying the inevitable situation that the hospital will be overloaded because our hospitals has always been full capacity pre covid.

-2

u/leisurely123 Oct 21 '21

but we are in this semi lockdown phase to 'stabilize the situation' because the hospitals are full

6

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

we are in this semi lockdown phase because the clowns in charge has lost the plot because covid didnt go by their script.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

[deleted]

-3

u/leisurely123 Oct 21 '21

if it is normal to be full why are we in this phase?

1

u/realdurpturdle Oct 21 '21

Covid-19 not average flu? Then what for gahmen wan treat it as endemic now sia

4

u/jinhong91 Oct 21 '21

I had the flu before and it's different from the more common cold. The flu people commonly talk about, is actually the common cold. That flu made me stay in bed most of time for 2 days.

-5

u/emorcen Oct 21 '21

This thread also serves to bring the trolls out of the woodwork so you can block them as you see fit. It'll make your Reddit experience better.

10

u/yewjrn 🍓strawberry generation🍓 Oct 21 '21

Just because people are against your viewpoints does not mean they are trolls. The whole thread has been having a "holier than thou" attitude (especially the title insinuating that those critical of the restrictions are not sensible).

You might support it based on your life experiences but people have the right to criticize it as well. One common point that your argument and every other pro-restriction argument seem to ignore is the cost of the restrictions, be it mental health or businesses.

Our healthcare system is stretched, but the mental health system is worse off while barely anyone is doing anything to improve it. And because suicides are seldom reported, the damage done by having an overburdened mental health system is pretty much invisible. Restrictions like this is taking a huge toll on mental health, yet we get people mocking this argument as "zoomers depressed after cannot drink after 10.30pm".

The issue is that our restrictions are meant to buy time to bolster the healthcare system. But given how things are, it feels like the time bought was wasted and that we will be stuck with the constant high restrictions to buy time while not knowing if there's any improvement to the healthcare system using the time bought.

If this was the first time we had restrictions, there wouldn't be so much anger and frustrations. But this has been an ongoing cycle for almost 2 years. Restrict, loosen, restrict, loosen. It's almost like being forcefully edged by the MMTF while hoping that the eventual release is coming.

20

u/pingmr Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

Or maybe your view is not sensible just because you label it so? If you call those who disagree strongly with you "trolls" then I don't see what is the high ground you can pretend to hold over the rage posters that you belittle

1

u/mrwagga Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21

Thanks. Blocking you as we…

0

u/ThisTakesThePizza Oct 21 '21

Thanks for speaking up. But yea a lot of HCW are quitting. And most of them can get their jobs back in a few months or take a small sabbatical to explore other jobs.

-23

u/thepaperbag123 Oct 21 '21

I glad someone's willing to say it. I much rather have tighter restrictions if it means less case load for the healthcare workers and less deaths. I don't want my "freedom" to be paid with someone else's blood. Of course, it seems like there would be no end to this, no "light at the end of the tunnel" sort of thing, but I'm not sure what would be a reasonable standard to determine such an end. Zero cases? Less restrictions, but more deaths? Both seem unreasonable to me. So eh, seems like being stuck in this limbo is the best we got until cases stabilize and see where we go from there. And I'm ok with this.

20

u/AdministrativeRub235 Oct 21 '21

"I don't want my "freedom" to be paid with someone else's blood."

You should petition the Government to abolish the Singapore Armed Forces in that case.

10

u/reallifeluxury Oct 21 '21

Or at the least petition against NS. Why should ur freedom be paid with the freedom of 18 yo Singaporean males

-11

u/thepaperbag123 Oct 21 '21

Ah you're right, i may have phrased that really weirdly. The caveat here is that if it can be avoided. I think some of this COVID deaths could be avoided with tighter restrictions. Which means to say I'm in favour of tighter restirtions if it means less cases/deaths

3

u/ylyn Mature Citizen Oct 21 '21

Which means to say I'm in favour of tighter restirtions if it means less cases/deaths

You need to account for deaths and worsened quality of life due to the restrictions then.

Unless all you care about is number of lives, without concern as to the quality.

1

u/puncel Oct 21 '21

People conveniently forget that when the vaccines were out, delta had not emerged. The promise was that herd immunity could be achieved and everything goes back to normal.

The emergence of delta shredded all those plans.

Although MOH has most recently said that he is seeing light at the end of the tunnel and situation is stabilizing, remember that this is at the expense of already postponing many elective surgeries and appointments at the hospitals.

Assuming if things like HC capacity & restrictions remain as they are now, are we sure that situation will subside in 3 - 6 months? Assume if situation does stabilize, they will be trying to catch up with all the medical procedures pushed out before the next wave comes at us again.

There will still not be any respite for the HCWs.

Work is done to try to recruit more with SG Healthcare Corps, now 800/2000 to be deployed. I wonder how much will these & SAF numbers help in the overall HC capacity. Will it be adequate to handle post-stabilizing phase + all the pushed out medical procedures?

1

u/BonkersMoongirl Oct 21 '21

I am for some restrictions as they have in other countries who are doing well. Masks indoors and vaccinated only access to crowded places seems sane. But the dining in rules and no music should go. Let us be in groups of 6. Seeing friends being broken apart by the SDA just because they happened to see each other and said hi is going too far.

Looks as if the whole world is going to have the basics for at least until their winter/forth wave is over. For us it may be another year. Maybe three at current progress for herd immunity. It has to be liveable. The current rules are making us all miserable. It’s not the right compromise.

We have no idea if they are working anyway since around half the asymptomatic cases are no longer reported now. The numbers look ok but they have been manipulated.