r/formula1 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21 This 2 Shocked 1 Yummy 1 Silver 14 Helpful 16 Wholesome 11 All-Seeing Upvote 2 Take My Money 1

Jolyon Palmer's opinion on the way Max Verstappen "carries himself" on-track, and how he races with Lewis from the BBC Chequered Flag podcast Misc /r/all

"From what I saw, Max is just happy to crash with Lewis and that is what every single flash-point was [this year], bar the brake testing which is something different entirely. But every incident where they are racing wheel-to-wheel, it is Max saying 'hey, if we crash, we crash' and Lewis saying 'I really do not want to crash, because it is going to be really bad for the championship'. And this goes back to day two in Imola and day four in Barcelona."

"It has been the case a lot this year, but now we are getting to the end of the season and Max has had the slower car for the last few, maybe it was the quicker car this weekend in the race it was hard to tell because of the tire differences, but he certainly had a better car in qualifying - anyway."

"Every one of these incidents, he is putting his car in a position that is saying 'either I am going to exit this corner ahead, or neither of us are going to exit the corner', which is an impossible way to go racing with someone. And of course if they crash, then Max has one hand on the trophy, he has 8 points [on Lewis] and does not even need to beat Lewis in Abu Dhabi - and if neither of them score points in Abu Dhabi, then Max is the champion so he will race like this again."

"And it is a really tricky thing trying to figure out how to work with this from here as a sport to try and just have a fair fight. Because it does not feel it is quite that at the moment, and where we are at now, for the second race of three where, basically, rather than being overtaken on track the stewards are having to just give a five-second penalty, in Brazil they did not but they should have. Max is not going to be overtaken on the track, he is going to cover the inside, not let anyone round the outside and if he goes off-track then 'to hell with it' but 'give me a penalty if you want, but I am not backing down'."

Link to podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0b8b4m3 (starts at around 9:30)

10.5k Upvotes

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u/KingShitHead69 New user Dec 07 '21

Apply rules consistently where you should and none of this would be a fucking problem

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u/DeeDee_GigaDooDoo Michael Masi Dec 07 '21

And most importantly actually enforce "leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage" the number of times that's been disregarded is fucking infuriating. What's the point in having track limits if people can cut corners and run wide at will with zero consequence and either maintain or even gain a position?

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u/Kloet Honda Dec 07 '21

Im still of the belief if there's asphalt people will take advantage of it. We know sausage kerbs can be too dramatic, so maybe natural track limits. Asphalt is game but as soon as you step out of line: sand, gravel, grass, tecpro, whatever. Stay within track or get punished by the track. And then when someone is pushed off then you enforce penalties. But people cannot advantage themselves anymore by leaving the track.

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u/gsurfer04 Williams Dec 07 '21

We know sausage kerbs can be too dramatic

I really like the Qatar shredders.

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u/LeOsQ Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21

I agree with you but I also agree with the person saying that gravel, sand, whatever else is too 'harsh' on someone getting pushed off.

If you're Lewis (in the case of this thread), and Max drives in a way which pushes you off the track into gravel or sand, you don't care if he gets a 5-10s penalty when you're either retiring or 30 seconds behind with a car that probably doesn't run as well as it should at that point.

So unless the penalty is super harsh, that'd not work at all and if it is harsh, giving them out would become much harder for the stews since they'd have such a huge impact, and they're already hesitant to apply penalties that might be very impactful, even if small because they 'don't want to decide a race' or whatever.

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u/fishpowered Dec 07 '21

Previously there was an outcry when there were too many penalties so we adopted this "let them race" mantra, and now no-one really knows where the limits are so there are more and more drivers ending up in controversial situations because the rules are no longer clear and they obviously want to get away with as much as possible. And here we are

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u/saucedsucio Dec 06 '21

This sport is crazy, wish I got into it earlier in life

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u/masalion #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 07 '21

This much drama is rare imo. Also the level of access people have now is insane. Earlier, you’d just watch the race on TV and see a couple of articles in the paper the next day. Now every armchair expert tries to make a career out of F1 content.

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u/Catfisher8 Felipe Massa Dec 07 '21

All the new people with social media at their finger tips really fuel a more toxic environment and divides everyone because you gotta have the mentality of me vs them…. Fucking sucks ass

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u/DogfishDave Default Dec 07 '21

All the new people with social media at their finger tips really fuel a more toxic environment

And bear in mind that the Liberty era is the first time that drivers and teams have been able to "publish F1 media" themselves - Bernie did not allow anything that he wasn't being paid for, effectively.

I'm a long-time F1 fan and, as I've said here many times, I'm not entirely comfortable with New F1 but I definitely see that it needed to change in order to survive, it was a somewhat archaic sport in media terms. Us oldies won't be around for ever 😂

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u/myredshoelaces Dec 07 '21

With you on this.

I really like the access we have now and the fact that previously the drivers down the grid were pretty much complete unknowns. Now we get to know them all. I think Liberty should be credited with making the sport more accessible.

The issues though become that more people start watching and can bring with them mentalities from other sports or even just general life mentalities where non-sense and pointless vitriol just get spewed out.

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u/magnumopusbigboy Nigel Mansell Dec 07 '21

I feel a lot of nostalgia for the Bernie era, but realistically by like 2017 he was a bit of a dinosaur and the sport wasn't in a great place. On the whole it's probably better to have mediocre corporate control than have it be in the hands of an idiosyncratic 1000 year old business warlock

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u/DogfishDave Default Dec 07 '21

I do agree, as I said before something needed to change. But of course Bernie was quite right that you lose control of the image if you hand it over to teams, drivers and fans. And losing control meant losing money, something that would bring the Bernster out of his motorhome in Rampage mode.

But that is what teams, drivers and fans want to do - they want to be part of the image, otherwise what are you and the sponsors doing there? It's the future and I'm quite sure F1 will survive it. Modern media consumers in this "pull" environment dictate output far more than they could in the old-school media "push" environment, and that's just how it is.

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u/howie_rules Pirelli Hard Dec 07 '21

People analyzing the lyrics on the radio… in the background of an Instagram post… of a sponsor… CONFIRMING A DRIVER IS LEAVING THEIR TEAM.

The conspiracy theories on this sub might be my favorite bit.

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u/saposapot Dec 07 '21

this has been the most exciting year in a very long time, don't get your hopes up.

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u/jackreyn3 Dec 07 '21

Everyone sees it as a Max vs. Lewis issue but it’s really more than that. The FIA has been so inconsistent and indecisive this year. Max takes the risk of being penalized because the FIA either doesn’t have enough of an effect with a penalty or they completely ignore the issue. Any meaningful decision by the FIA has come after a race because they react to what the people think. It’s just been an absolute clusterfuck this season.

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u/kRkthOr Red Bull Dec 07 '21

Precisely.

Until the FIA starts penalizing drivers for risky moves and taking out the competition with more than a +5 or +10 second penalty, the best move for the losing team will always be to take the risky moves.

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u/maddh0x BMW Sauber Dec 07 '21

The sentence "let them race" dropped a lot at the begin of the season. Every racing incident is individual, there is no black and white solution to incidents. Because of that calling for penaltys for risky driving is an quite easy approach to a complex situation at the Race track.

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u/freakasaurous Default Dec 07 '21

Martin Brundle said this about Ayrton Senna years ago. He put his car in a position where you have to decide whether or not you both are having an accident. You either back off or you’re crashing into each other.

It’s exactly what Verstappen is doing.

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u/JimPalamo #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 07 '21

Yep, that was from when Top Gear did the Senna tribute film, and Clarkson spoke to Brundle about what it was like to actually race against him.

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u/SteveRogers_7 McLaren Dec 07 '21

Anyone have a link to this?

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u/thrivingkoala Charlie Whiting Dec 07 '21

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u/udat42 Dec 07 '21

I've not seen that since it aired. Great tribute. Hamilton's genuine joy and excitement to drive the car was palpable.

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u/BrinkMeister Dec 07 '21

Yea that was awesome, like a kid in a candy shop!

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u/gooztrz Dec 07 '21

Schumacher was also known for do or die manoeuvers, people mostly remember the good parts

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u/cco2411 Dec 07 '21

Yeah, his races against Damon Hill were epic! The naughty boy still couldn’t stop Hill from becoming WDC.

RIP Frank Williams, you are missed.

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u/ConsiderationOwn5118 Dec 07 '21

Yep. I dont like this style of driving, but if Senna does it, it's glorified. When others do it, its disgusting

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u/sharkterritory Williams Dec 06 '21 Helpful

Maybe a good reason to remove concrete runoff. The penalty for going wide and never actually making the corner just isn’t there.

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u/TheAngryGoat Medical Car Dec 07 '21

We saw that in qualifying when Max crashed out. Unlike stewards, walls have strictly defined limits and a guaranteed and instant punishment for disobeying them.

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u/hffhkbgrz Dec 07 '21

Doesn’t solve the problem in this (particular) case because Max doesn’t care if he ends up in the gravel as long as Lewis ends up there too.

I generally agree though.

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u/mithu_raj Dec 06 '21

Brazil should’ve been the race where the FIA clamped down on this behaviour of just driving your rival off track…..

There’s no point of having these great new regs coming in next season if this is allowed

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u/Mountain_Income_7315 Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

I keep seeing people make this point, and I agree that Brazil would have been the perfect place to make the point.

HOWEVER, since they didn't, the new perfect time to make the point is as soon as possible.

It kind of feels like everyone seems to believe that because the stewards were so cowardly in Brazil, that we can't have consistent rules anymore.

If Masi actually had the balls to call this out and put an end to it, it would be over. But he doesn't and the season will probably be ruined next week because the stewards and race director are cowards.

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u/surgeons_mate Fernando Alonso Dec 06 '21

If Masi actually had the balls to call this out and put an end to it, it would be over. But he doesn't and the season will probably be ruined next week because the stewards and race director are cowards.

Yeah, they needed to lay down the law early. Doesn't matter if people complain about it potentially affecting the championship. They'll do that anyway. But it looks really bad if/when it ends up literally deciding the championship in the last race.

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u/confusedpublic Dec 06 '21

Enforcing the rules is not affecting the championship. Not enforcing them is. Driving illegally is. Enforcing the rules is not. It is allowing the championship to happen and protecting its integrity.

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u/golem501 #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 07 '21

Clear rules help with that. Remember the "moving under braking" rule? That was called the "Max Verstappen rule" because he was doing it and other drivers complained. When a clear rule was instated and enforced there was one breach and penalty from this rule and it was not Max who got that penalty but one of the guys who complained most about exactly that behavior before it was turned into a rule.

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u/pengouin85 Honda Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21

Agreed. The Brazil incident was the same as Verstappen turn 1 lap 37 here in Saudi Arabia. He was inside, drove off track and blocked Hamilton's path and Hamilton would have crashed if Hamilton hadn't bailed off the track and Verstappen was able to keep the position.

Verstappen said in Qatar he was clear about the driver's meeting when the FIA clarified what was allowed and not, but all other drivers were still confused. IIRC, they said crowding off track was not allowed, yet Verstappen did it in Saudi Arabia and disagreed with the called penalty there.

But it's unfair to lay the blame on Masi. That's the stewards'responsibility

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u/NoelofNoel Love Is Love Dec 07 '21

A wise man once said: The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second-best time is today.

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u/bwoahconstricter Alfa Romeo Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 07 '21

I wish there was a way to remove the identity of the drivers from the stewards' decisions. I think that would make things a whole lot* more different.

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u/mjcobley Nigel Mansell Dec 07 '21

I think that's not a great idea. If a driver is making the same moves over and over, what you're seeing is a pattern of behavior that can't just be excused as "I ran a little wide".

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u/Lost-Pineapple9791 Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Another main issue is the FIA seems to rely on time penalties as a default

You don’t necessarily lose a place, and they aren’t going to suspend you

But it’s also a harmless penalty as most drivers even down the grid are more than 10 seconds apart from each other

Giving post race time penalties that don’t effect position or points earned is encouraging drivers to keep doing

I bet I’d they were lose 5 spots or 10 spot penalties they’d matter much more

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u/SgtFancypants98 Kimi Räikkönen Dec 06 '21

I said this a while back and got downvoted aggressively for it but…

In Brazil the best course of action would have been to immediately make Max give Lewis the position. By not doing that they set up a post race showdown where there were legitimate demands to have the incident reviewed, which they clearly did not want to do and now we’re seeing the fallout of that.

The application of penalties in response to rules offenses needs to be swift, even handed, and without regard to the consequences; if that means a driver wins something due to a “technicality” then the offender should have fucking minded the damn rule book.

Everyone is all excited about the championship battle this year, and if what you want is drama… well you’ve got it, but IMO what is beyond crystal clear after this weekend is that the actual racing is shit. Sure as usual we see some incredible individual performances, but when two specific cars get near each other, the two we want to see actually fight for position, they can’t, because as was said in the podcast… one of them is going to “send it” with the intent of either coming out ahead or wrecking both cars. That’s not racing, that’s shit.

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u/Yung_Chloroform Dec 07 '21

Max is a phenomenal driver but these last few races he's been torpedoing corners like Forza players and it sucks to see the FIA not do anything about it.

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u/nameless_me Dec 07 '21

Looking at video footage, followed by the late release of the additional video above Max's steering wheel in Brazil, it is very clear Max was going so fast on the straight to protect his position against Lewis he made no attempt to turn for the apex of the corner. This led to his vehicle taking between 3 and 4 car widths WIDE of the turn into the runoff area which consequently cause Lewis to do the same to avoid crashing.

In Saudi this past weekend, Max is also going so fast on the Saudi straight on the inside line he has no chance of making the apex of the corner and puts himself in a position to crash into Lewis. (see here (https://youtu.be/QS4Z38HhsMc?t=29).

Max is no longer driving within the white lines as the "clarified" policy says. In fact after he went unpenalized for the Brazil maneuver, other drivers said they would drive that way if that was the new norm. Such behaviour is unprofessional and dangerous because it is done with intent not due to mechanical failure or brake lockup (his brake check on Lewis generating up to 2.4g when ordered to give back position is another discussion).

Max does this again later in the race by completely leaving the track because he is going too fast on the inside line to make the corner (https://youtu.be/vRhhS6BnLSY?t=348).

So how does a Mercedes with Lewis take that same corner? See https://youtu.be/vRhhS6BnLSY?t=186 Lewis stays within the lines and kerbs the outside wheels without 4 wheels leaving the track. Max once again goes too fast to make the corner on the outside line and completely departs the track. The clips may be viewed several times to see various angles and overhead view.

Note Lewis is not pushing Max outside the track, Lewis is taking the apex and staying within the lines as is his right as the driver with the inside line.

This means Max is not driving according to the rules and is intentionally carrying excessive speed for the corner knowing it is not possible to stay within the track with such momentum.

This is not being aggressive. This is stupid, dangerous and wrongheaded. His final qualifying lap at Saudi was a work of art, sublime and teetering at the very limits of track and adhesion. Something that a car control genius like Senna may have been proud of. But he lost it at the final corner so it didn't count for P1.

And that's the difference between a driver like Max and a driver like Lewis. With the cars so technical close and head and shoulders above the rest, it comes down to character. Max is a dirty driver. Lewis though not a saint, is a cleaner driver than Max.

The FIA has done a poor job with enforcement of driving standards here. I have no doubt Max will try to crash Lewis at the final race to try and take the driver's championship. That is Max's character to win dirty if he can.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21 edited 23d ago

[deleted]

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u/Wheredidthebuckstart Dec 07 '21

I've seen so many people try and use this reasoning and it honestly makes me want to punch a camel. It's so fucking stupid. Lewis HAS to go off track to avoid an accident because Max can't be fucked to consider the other driver.

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u/SgtFancypants98 Kimi Räikkönen Dec 07 '21

Seriously. Max is really fast and he's very good at setting up and executing overtakes. He absolutely has the talent to win a clean fight against Lewis. So it's hard for me to understand why we are where we are.

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u/kepajoy Dec 07 '21

Because Christian Horner is egging him on instead of keeping him honest. Max is a great driver, and the label of dirty driver will stick with him for the rest of his career if he doesn't cut it out. I gave him a pass when he was just starting out in F1, but there's no more excuses for his antics. His team is doing him a disservice.

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u/christof21 Dec 07 '21

I think Max is unfortunately caught up in the Horner Marko spin machine and Max is still young and easily influenced by them. At the moment it's tarnishing Max's obvious natural abilities.

Personally I think Horner and Marko should be banned from trackside for the last race. Like football managers getting sent to the stands when they've been out of order.

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u/Semioteric Dec 07 '21

Because he is leading the championship with what he perceives is now a slower car, and if his only goal is to win the championship, the best way to do that with a slower car from his current spot is to crash into his rival. So ya, I agree with the podcast analysis, it’s clearly exactly what is happening.

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u/pottertown Michael Schumacher Dec 07 '21

I’ve been shouting this to anyone within earshot:

Separate the stewards completely from the tracks.

No more guest stewards, or “thank you” stewards. Same semi-independent group every race of the year.

Automate what gets reviewed as much as possible.

Ensure it’s staffed well enough to handle whatever “day to day” things like track limits but also have capacity to handle multiple, multiple car on track incidents.

And yea, where possible completely remove identifying information from the data being reviewed.

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u/doumoaffogato Formula 1 Dec 07 '21

You mean like they're sitting in a room in Biggin Hill and not even watching the race until they are called onto an incident?

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u/mamasilver Dec 07 '21

Thats f1 2021 game for you sir. Online mode

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u/garryblendenning Dec 06 '21

It's been years of this now. Ever since Austria 2019 where he just drove into Charles for the win. But they're not interested in fair racing, they're more interested in creating a spectacle

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u/xScottieHD Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

Austria 2019 should've been that race. Hell Maybe even after the first half of 2018 someone should've sat down with him.

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u/bisonboy223 Alexander Albon Dec 06 '21

During Austria 2019 I really wanted Max to win and I was very happy that they didn't penalize him for the shove. After the race, Charles basically said something to the effect of "oh that's allowed? Alright bet" and drove markedly more aggressively for the rest of the year, including a series of arguably illegal defenses on Hamilton at Monza.

Honestly, looking back, I wish they did penalize Max for that move. Because allowing that level of aggression is bad for racing. Of course a driver should be able to defend against an overtake or make an aggressive overtaking move, but there will be situations as a defender where an overtake is inevitable or as an attacker where the move just isn't there. The idea that you can and should still do whatever it takes to take/keep the position anyway is bad for the sport because it makes overtaking and defending way more risky, since the other driver can just ram you off the road, take the position, and bet on the stewards being too spineless to do anything meaningful about it.

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u/HumbleAmazeball Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Yup you’re spot on. I remember those incidents like they were yesterday.

Especially Charles at Monza. He realised he could push people off and into the wall, so he did it. Since then it’s been continued

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u/yIdontunderstand Dec 06 '21

Frankly his bullshit swerving all over the place defending should have been penalised from day one, so he realises he had to drive cleanly to not get penalised... The more he got away with, the more bullshit he tries...

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u/ThePhotoGuyUpstairs Sir Jack Brabham Dec 06 '21

Frankly, after they absolved Max of responsibility at Baku when he weaved OM Ricciardo, that was the beginning of the end. This has been ongoing for years now.

I think its telling, that Max didn't spend enough time in junior formulas to have this kind of thing stamped out. One year in which he finished third in F3 Euro and straight to F1.

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u/meiamsome Dec 07 '21

Why should F1 rely on the drivers having 'learnt' this in junior formulas instead of just applying rules in the same way in F1? Max would surely drive more fairly if he were being adequately punished by the FIA.

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u/ThePhotoGuyUpstairs Sir Jack Brabham Dec 07 '21

Yes, the FIA share equal blame in this.

Max isn't the only one. It's ridiculous guys like Ticktum are still racing in F2, after what the stunt he pulled on Ricky Collard. If the FIA aren't even going to take a stand on that, Max is going to have to shoot out one of Lewis's tyres before they take action.

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u/scubasteve85 Jenson Button Dec 07 '21

"Michael, this is Christian. Shooting out tires is all about letting then race."

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u/deadmanslouching Brawn Dec 07 '21

Wait a minute. Is that specified in the rulebook? BRB, need to make a phone call.

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u/Shnoochieboochies Dec 06 '21

It's going to come down to using your team mate as a missile to take out your opponent at this rate. Why risk totalling your own car against your main rival, when you can use a disposable car on the track, it also wouldn't effect WCC as both teams would have lost a car.

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u/jhrfortheviews Daniel Ricciardo Dec 06 '21 Silver

I disagree re Austria - absolute agree that Max’s levels of aggression this year have been excessive but we have to be more nuanced. I think earlier in the season his moves were aggressive and hard racing but within the realms of what is acceptable - I don’t see anything wrong with his defence/attack at Imola or Spain for example.

The difference has been that at Brazil max didn’t get penalised when it was the most obvious penalty I’ve seen! And so twice on Sunday he took a place/retained a place by going off the track. Obviously going off the track and gaining a place is always a penalty/give position back. But this whole driving another driver off the track and going off the track yourself is where the problem is. There is no way that should be acceptable but the stewards absolutely bottled it in Brazil by not giving him a penalty.

So now max says things like ‘well we both went beyond the white line so why do I get penalised’ - how he can believe this kind of nonsense is beyond me.

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u/kayembeee Dec 07 '21

I’ve heard some Max fans picking up the “we both went off track so how come I’m the one penalized” line.

It’s like logical discourse and facts can’t exist anymore or something. It’s infuriating. We can all see why both cars went off track; intention HAS to mean something

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u/Wipedout89 Dec 07 '21

Even the commentator said it in the race highlights on Channel 4. 'oh Lewis crossed the track limits too so Max won't have to give the place back'. Like not only did that prove to be wrong (he did have to give it back), the only reason Lewis went off is because he was forced to by Max hurling across the track and off the circuit in front of him, or they would have crashed

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u/Quantumercifier Ayrton Senna Dec 07 '21

It was a total absurd comment. It's like blaming a shooting victim because he got in the way of a moving bullet. Or being under a falling nuclear bomb! Outrageous that this can go on!

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u/impactXSR Dec 07 '21

Simply cannot reason with sociopaths like him and his dad, they will just spread their lies like they are gospels and their followers. Only reason Hamilton also went off the track was because he had to take evasive action or his championship will be over.

Schumacher did a lot less in 1997 than what Max has done so far in the season, and yet nothing has been done against Max in the name of "letting them race", which is more like "letting Max race".

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u/Prince_John Dec 07 '21

Yeah, I just watched that replay - Lewis was comfortable on track, having made the corner, until he had to jerk the steering wheel right to avoid Max diving down the inside.

Then Max has the gall to say that Lewis was equally to blame for going off track...! It's like he's looking at a different race to me.

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u/cobarbob Dec 07 '21

2019! Should have be Austria 2016!

Rosberg runs Lewis off track to win the race. Dirty move then, and dirty move in Brazil by Max.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixmGVL4dedI

Charles and Fernando and everyone else is then compelled to admit they will change tactics because this level of driving is acceptable.

TLDR - it's all Brittany's fault

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u/xScottieHD Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21

Rosberg was penalised and didn't win, Max was not penalised and won his race.

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u/pink__frog Dec 06 '21

Agreed. He’s been enabled year after year. Do you think the FIA have finally realised they’ve created a problem?

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u/Poopy_sPaSmS Kamui Kobayashi Dec 06 '21

They haven't realized.

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u/BlackCatEspresso Spa 2021 4-hour broadcast survivor Dec 07 '21

I think they've realized but they still don't want to truly do anything about it.

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u/xScottieHD Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

They probably have but it's not in F1's interest to reign him in as it's good for ratings and drawing in new younger viewers would be my guess.

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u/necessarynsufficient Dec 06 '21

I don't see the logic really, personality wise he is one of the least interesting characters on the grid. I get the appeal of the ascetic manic driver, but put Lando/Leclerc in a fast car and which casual fan would prefer Max, really? If that's F1's whole marketing strategy, they have a lot to learn....

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u/JakeTheAndroid Dec 06 '21

His aggressive style draws interest on the track. It makes the sport more dangerous and he's always been fast in the car. It creates drama with other drivers. Danny Ric and him had tension on the track when they were both on RB, constantly racing each other aggressively. The issues with LeClerc. Now Hamilton who is the most accomplished driver ever in F1.

When Lewis and Nico were racing each other hard it was also very entertaining, but there were plenty of high risk moves they pulled on each other. Max does this with everyone all the time, so it's an endless source of race drama.

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u/xScottieHD Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

Max is young, aggressive and has effectively an entire nation and most of Northern Europe behind him. It's the fireworks that grab headlines not calculated moves. There's a very good reason why Senna is so remembered for his career (death aside) while Prost is not seen in the same light (even if Prost was every bit as good as Senna). Whether we like it or not, Max has become almost a cult of personality in F1 terms.

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u/Wasdgta3 Lance Stroll Dec 06 '21

Prost wasn't just as good as Senna, he was arguably better - the statistics back this up.

Of course, that only goes to prove your point further, since people often seem to forget Prost when it comes to discussing the GOATs, whilst remembering Senna.

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u/i_like_frootloops Jordan Dec 06 '21

China 2018 when he ruined Vettel's and got away for free.

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u/dr3minem Sebastian Vettel Dec 06 '21

Honestly, this kind of racing, pushing the outside car off track, should have been penalized in Austin 2015 Turn 1 already. This shit racing has been allowed for way too long, and it's not fun to watch, or fair.

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u/onemany Dec 06 '21

I wish palmer was a permanent steward.

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u/Nexusu Jaguar Dec 06 '21

”Where is Palmer?” would get a whole new meaning.

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u/Snule Carlos Sainz Dec 06 '21

Judge Jolyon Karma

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u/UnlovableUglyLoser Sebastian Vettel Dec 06 '21

I think this is spot on. I’m saying this as someone who has praised Verstappen all year.

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u/GodSentGodSpeed Formula 1 Dec 06 '21 Silver Wholesome

His entire career he has been the underdog, so this mentality of "you let me go or we both crash" has been quite successful so far. If you are in a faster car, you benefit from having a clean race with no incidents, if you have a worse car, incidents benefit you.

But the script flips when you have the stronger car or are leading the championship, your competitor will get more and more desperate and more and more unwilling to play along, max learned that the hard way in silverstone where he was leading the championship by 32 points meaning he could finish p2 behind lews for 4 races in a row and still lead, but he tried to go on the outside of copse.

I dont think max was at fault for that incident, imo hamilton was, but max put himself in a position to get DNFed, which you should only do as an underdog, not when ur the favorite to win the championship.

I think max can learn a lot from this year.

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u/Amused-Observer Dec 06 '21

Max has never not driven like this.

My god, I wish y'all would go back and watch his racing from day 1. He's always been of the mentality 'if we crash, we crash'.

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u/zhiryst Fernando Alonso Dec 07 '21

F1's YouTube even did a video on it back then, nothing new is right: https://youtu.be/lkAoSghdD6Y

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u/Route_765 Haas Dec 07 '21

Nothing has changed lmao

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u/Amused-Observer Dec 07 '21

That last one and his complete refusal to admit he fucked up. My god, what an idiot. Can never be a fan.

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u/gandalf_theblue Dec 07 '21

Watching this makes me so angry and how blatant his bullying tactics are on the track. Vettel getting so frustrated on the radio, rightly so!

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u/DugBingo951 #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 07 '21

This. Remember all the moving under braking too? All the crashes with Ricciardo/Vettel/Leclerc. He’s crazy.

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u/Amused-Observer Dec 07 '21

Yep,

remember www.HasVerstappenCrashedToday.com ?

Too bad they stopped updating it.

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u/bixorlies Kamui Kobayashi Dec 07 '21

If you go back on this sub to whenever any of these things happened, it was mostly people defending Ver. Even when he was crashing every other weekend 4 or so years into driving in f1, people were defending him as being a rookie but would demand the head of Maldonado or others who went through a crashing phase. Difference with them is that they either were dropped or stopped crashing into others.

I think what annoys me most about RBR and Ver (and back when vettel was there) was that they would cause something, be it a crash or something else, and start throwing their toys out of the pram and blame everything and everyone else. Vettel grew out of it after a few years at Ferrari but Horner, Ver, Marko etc. Remain the way they always have. That annoying kid who would punch someone and then run crying to teacher that they got punched

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u/CatharsisAddict Dec 07 '21

Funny, I just commented something similar. His early karting days don’t look much different than today

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u/op3l Dec 07 '21

Yep, he's always been like this but his supporters just conveniently forget this. He's been the subject of numerous "Well if he can do that, then so shall we" starting with moving under braking.

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u/screenres Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 07 '21

at 5:56

Jennie "Do the stewards and Michael Masi have quite a lot to answer for in this situation?"

Jolyon "Yeah. I think so. I kind of feel like they've let it get out of hand, by being too loose and this is the whole 'Let them race' thing. They've lost control in the same way a football referee lets too many of those tackles go, and everyone's like 'Oh fine, so we can do these bad tackles'. And it kind of all stems back to Brazil still. But it's blatantly obvious in this one (Jeddah). In Brazil Max refused to be passed by Lewis, so he could do nothing about it and lunged in, and forced them both off the road by a mile. And it was fine. He did the same again today and he had to let Lewis through because it wasn't fine today. There's fundamentally a huge issue where Max thinks he's fine to drive as he is, Lewis thinks he's not, and the stewards are somewhere in the middle. Sometimes penalizing and sometimes not, and it's a really gray area that crops up again and again... There's no clearness on what the rules are."

This is a crux of the issue I've been seeing this season. It lies with the inability of race direction and the stewards to call the shots.

I've no personal issue with Max as a driver. He's been trying to do what he can as someone who is outpaced, and this has proven to be his biggest shot at the title. So he continues to try and sweep the leg because he can get away with it.

But with a regulating body that applies clear consistent rules, gamesmanship or tactics like Max's wouldn't continue. He would be checked and brought in line. But without a firm hand, Max is doing what he can to gain an advantage which, at the moment, is knocking out Lewis.

Don't hate the player - blame Masi and crew who can't get themselves figured out. The radio exchange with RBR about second restart grid positions was so pathetic. It was to the point of "Would you like Darjeeling? Well I rather prefer Pimm's but if I must..."

I want to see great motorsports. Some Max supporters are veering into Tonya 'Lead Pipe' Harding territory

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u/Gotl0stinthesauce Mercedes Dec 07 '21

Okay so I’m somewhat new to F1 rules but what the hell was that bargaining for the restart with RBR?! Is that normal? Like why is the option being given to the team.. shouldn’t that be the stewards?

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u/Kohpad Dec 07 '21

So the stewards will and won't investigate incidents for... Reasons. Masi as race director can ask the stewards to look at things. What's happening is Masi is offering teams the chance to put the positions right and he won't call the stewards in who deal in harsher penalities.

This is all in theory. I think from the last few races the actual rules are evident FIA doesn't want any hand in "deciding" the championship so they're going to let them race

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u/blueBOBcollar Dec 07 '21

So in an instance without the race being red flagged the drivers are given the opportunity to give the place back usually at the instruction of their engineer unless it was blatantly obvious.

Since it was red flagged Masi was basically ensuring they all fell in line to where they should have rearranged too had the race not stopped to avoid the stewards having to hand out penalties on the race restart.

Masi was preoccupied with organizing the removal of debris and cars from the track and then after what appeared to be a delay organized the gentleman's agreement.

That's why there was really very minimal pushback from the teams (redbull in particular).

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u/Nedpet #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 06 '21 Silver I'll Drink to That

Many keep overlooking this behavior because it’s Lewis he’s against (and many don’t like him). If next season has more people up there who could get problems with Verstappen, people will start to get upset even though he is not racing any different. And that’s coming from someone who is absolutely pro Verstappen championship this season.

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u/LobbyDizzle Dec 07 '21

I feel like after last weekend the sentiment for Max has greatly greatly shifted. Look at this thread.

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u/MartynLann Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

I really want Charles on a great car making Max's life hell.

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u/InstanceMysterious Dec 07 '21

Max and Charles will crash so many times that Carlos will win the championship

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u/HartBandit Charlos Dec 07 '21

.....subscribe?

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u/STANdaardman Dec 07 '21

I would definitively subscribe to that idea, that would be such an amazing storyline

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u/gin-o-cide Ferrari Dec 07 '21

Your flair. I am.. aroused.

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u/AYASOFAYA Dec 06 '21

Charles “If max is going to get away with this shit then imma start doing the shit too” Leclerc.

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u/SHORT-CIRCUT Sebastian Vettel Dec 07 '21

Someone else commented it before but a Charles v Max championship battle would be the first F1 WRC Championship lol

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u/aak1992 Honda Dec 07 '21 All-Seeing Upvote This

Does anyone remember that 2019 Austria race thread? Public opinion was purely pro max punting Charles right off, very few were against that move but it was dirty AF. Max getting frustrated that Charles had better drive on the outside out of T2 so he body checks him off track.

The truth is Max has been doing this kind of shit for ages, it's just his nature now. Poor inconsistent stewarding created this mess.

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u/xXRadicalRexXx Dec 07 '21

Exactly what I thought of. That move was so blatant but people seemed to be ok with it.

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u/aak1992 Honda Dec 07 '21

Their arguments were literally "Charles shouldn't have left the inside open like that".

Like what the fuck does that even mean? Defending drivers should always take inside lines forever? Fucking insanity, and they actually blamed the defending driver for taking a line and sticking to it, while Max divebombed him off track and over the sausage kerbs while they were side by side (literally had to be since they banged front wheels).

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u/Wissam24 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21

Until he starts finding himself with DSQs and race bans and he starts becoming a liability to the team, he'll never change,

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21 edited 23d ago

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u/Karaya1 Love Is Love Dec 07 '21

watching Lewis and Alonso race each other, or thinking back to Vettel and Lewis on track has me missing the old heads. at least.. i hope some of the hot blooded stuff we're seeing now dies off as these younger guys get into championship winning machinery

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u/BrownSugarBare #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 06 '21

Completely agree. You put one of the drivers you mentioned in either a Redbull as Max's team mate or a Mercedes today, and he'd be screaming if they pulled the same stubbornness/recklessness he demonstrates. He's basically counting on Lewis to keep his classiness when he insists on being messy. Just as Palmer said, Lewis races for the team, Max races for Max.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21 edited 4d ago

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u/shady_vin Dec 07 '21

Yeah people are suddenly gonna start having problems when Max crashes repeatedly with Charles, Lando and George

I fully understand why Vettel really didn't like this kid back in his Ferrari days and he kept fucking him up

Edit: With guys like Charles, Lando and George even incidents like Spain are gonna end up in crashes because these guys often don't have the same level of maturity (?? Idk the right word) like ham who plays it smart and plays the long game, avoiding max (or any other crash really) and trying to get him later cleanly.

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u/Cuntbungler Formula 1 Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

God bless Palmer and his impassioned, yet caustic, nail on the head rants.

Him and his voice doppelganger really do provide some of the best race weekend insight around.

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u/Jojo_isnotunique Dec 06 '21

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who thinks Jolyon sounds so much like Jack Nicholls.

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u/TacoExcellence Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Oh my god I have no idea which is which. I honestly try to make a mental note when one of them is mentioned to try to pin it down, but it doesn't work.

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u/djwillis1121 Williams Dec 07 '21

Out of the two, Jack has a slightly higher pitch voice. I spent ages getting the two of them mixed up and that's the only way I've been able to distinguish between them.

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u/Cuntbungler Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

It's usually only the barbs back from Jolyon (you know the ones that always have subtext of "well you've never driven shit, Jack, so...") that give away who is even talking half the time.

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u/ehs5 Safety Car Dec 06 '21

Lol well described, I knew exactly what you mean instantly.

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u/TheHolyLordGod Lotus Dec 06 '21

Glad I’m not the only one that hears that a lot as well lol. Great listening to both of them tho

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u/bucket113 McLaren Dec 07 '21

ohmygod i could kiss you for saying this. even after 60+ episodes this season alone, i still spend half the time trying to figure out which of them is speaking when. a favorite pod nonetheless.

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u/Crippled_Potato Dec 06 '21

Him and Jack are brilliant, his no nonsense criticisms on all the drivers and teams are just spot on. Lewis also gets his fair share of criticism from Palmer for his "didn't know what was happening" excuse with the slowdown / collision at the final corner.

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u/sag969 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

Haha I've been listening to the chequered flag podcast for several years now, and only in the last year have I gotten the hang of instantly and correctly identifying if it was Joylon or Jack talking.

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u/Ignorhymus Dec 07 '21

Seriously, every race, there's debate, and every race I wait to hear jolyon's analysis; it's balanced and pragmatic, and he's quite often been able to change my mind with his breakdowns.

I honestly think he'd be a fantastic race director; I think masi's been out of his depth since day 1, and jolyon has a way of cutting through all the bullshit to get to the truth of the matter.

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u/CarrionComfort Dec 06 '21

This has been apparent for a long time and it is maddening that people think Max’s calm demeanor outside the car is reflective of how he races.

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u/dekker045 Red Bull Dec 06 '21

Just like Schumacher on and over the limits on track

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u/StockAL3Xj McLaren Dec 06 '21

Exactly. I wonder if the criticism would change if Max had a few championships under his belt.

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u/sleepy416 Dec 06 '21 Starry

Everyone keeps citing Senna and Schumi but they were racing pre social media. Very easy to change a narrative over time simply by winning. The only opinion that gets mass recognition is the media. Now with social media, everyone can voice their opinion on a large scale. You can’t get away with that anymore

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u/fools_eye Dec 07 '21

Do people not remember that Schumacher was widely hated and fans wanted anyone but him to win?

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u/archangel_mjj Juan Pablo Montoya Dec 07 '21

I know I'm not the only person here with a Montoya fair even all these years later...

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u/ravenouscartoon Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21

Don’t underestimate how many fans here only saw Schumacher at Mercedes, or came to the sport after his accident.

His accident made lots of people not want to focus on the negatives of his career, same as Senna’s death did for him

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u/fools_eye Dec 07 '21

Yep, the accidents and deaths enhance a legacy, morbid thought but true.

Drivers are remembered more fondly post retirement too. Interested to see how that pans out for Lewis. I think he's easily the GOAT but I don't think there will be many takers for that opinion as long as he's competing.

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u/Due_To_Strategy Dec 06 '21

If he turns into a Vettel at RB? Yes, it would change. Seb was viewed as a thoroughly nice kid in the beginning. He was portrayed as arrogant when he’d celebrate winning, after they realised he wasn’t gonna disappear back into the midfield any time soon. Very few like dominance. And imo Max doesn’t have nearly the top type of personality that Vettel has always had (yes even when he was younger). People will turn against any dominant driver, and every slightly controversial moment (multi 21, anyone?) serves the confirmation bias

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u/endersai Daniel Ricciardo Dec 07 '21

I mean Multi-21 was years in the making, to be fair. Favourable treatment with wings at Silverstone 2010, Marko blaming Webber when everyone knew that was nonsense at Hungary 2010, team orders at Silverstone 2011 to hold Webber back... It wasn't just that he was successful and one strike, you're dead to fans. It was a long simmering pot that boiled over.

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u/peterfun Dec 07 '21

Sebs domination didn't involve driving his car into others. He did come off as arrogant and multi 21 didn't help that at all.

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u/MisterAppelmoesmaker Dec 06 '21

It does change with time as well, just look at Senna and Schumacher.

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u/ehs5 Safety Car Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 07 '21

Huh. I have never looked at Max as someone with a calm demeanor. He seems like a short tempered guy to me. He was literally raging at Ocon and pushed him in front of the cameras in Brazil in 2018.

Side note: The absolute outrage that would occur if Hamilton ever did something like that….

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u/Hald1r Melbourne GP 2020 Ticket Holder Dec 07 '21

All of this is mostly happening because there are only 2 drivers fighting for the championship so what Max is doing makes sense from a game theory point of view. Add a third driver contending for the championship and he can no longer do this as the third driver takes the points when he crashes. It also makes 5 and 10 second penalties meaningful if there is a 3rd driver in the mix to pick up the position.

Max is like this because earlier only wins counted and now he is trying to stay ahead of a faster driver/car while still having a WDC points lead and the FIA lets him.

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u/jogaboi19 Dec 06 '21

Seeing a lot of professional drivers outside of F1 with the same opinion of Max’s driving since Mexico. Maybe the current bubble of F1 is jaded by this “let them race” mantra.

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u/Tommysynthistheway Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Only when it concerns the championship contenders. When it comes to Yuki, it’s a straight 10 second time penalty.

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u/Tinie_Snipah Max Verstappen Dec 06 '21

Yuki being penalised in Brazil was a travesty. Strolls fault

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u/krishal_743 I can do that, because I just did Dec 07 '21

even gasly getting penalty points and a time penalty was a fucking joke in austin

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u/Tinie_Snipah Max Verstappen Dec 07 '21

Guys I think the stewards might be shit

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u/SgtBlumpkin Dec 06 '21

It's insane to me that this interpretation of "let them race" is often "defense should go unpunished"

Shouldn't we want to favor the attack for exciting races?

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u/yistisyonty Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Yes. Also racing off the track isn't really racing. If someone cuts 10 corners and saves 30 seconds, you shouldn't just "let them race". You should enforce the rules because an unfair sport is pointless.

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u/righteouslyincorrect Kimi Räikkönen Dec 06 '21 Silver Gold Helpful

Schumacher literally won the title doing this in the most blatant way. And Senna took out Prost at turn 1 to win a championship too. If Max knows anything about f1 he knows this is normal.

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u/WastedPenny Dec 07 '21

Prost took Senna out at T1 Suzuka 1989 to win the championship

Senna took Prost out at T1 Suzuka 1990 to win the championship

Well well well how the turntables

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u/McLarenMP4-26 Red Bull Dec 07 '21

1989 wasn't at turn 1. It was at the final chicane.

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u/goranlepuz Formula 1 Dec 07 '21

Ehhh... 1989 was so much more doing it together. Neither were passing through. And it ended up in pretty neat wheel locking without being so dangerous.

1990 was just nasty.

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u/shady_vin Dec 07 '21

This comment section gives me hope.

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u/Tommysynthistheway Formula 1 Dec 06 '21

Spot on, someone who dares to take a position finally.

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u/FalloutFPS Pierre Gasly Dec 06 '21

More of a fact than opinion at this point, spot on from Palmer

If Lewis doesn’t take evasive maneuvers several times this year, we’ve got like 5 Hamilton and Verstappen crashes, he should’ve been penalized in Brazil

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u/top7to9 Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

The FIA needs to take a long, hard look at their sporting and technical regulations over the offseason. Both RB and Mercedes have exhibited behaviors this season that have ultimately led to this scenario where letting Max's driving style go unchecked is going to result in somebody getting seriously hurt.

Just this past race alone, Max was shoving Lewis off the road, Bottas was driving overly slowly under SC to give Lewis a free pitstop, Lewis was ultra-slow getting to the grid on the restart to cool Max's tires down, and then the complete fiasco of Max's break check and Lewis colliding into him (which even the FIA acknowledged as both drivers seeking the optimal DRS situation for themselves).

A few general thoughts:

  • Do away with 5s time penalties entirely, and start at 10s. Increase the penalties to stop-go / DQ / DQ + loss of championship points when drivers become repeat offenders.
  • Add a defined location on each circuit for drivers to give back position when that's mandated by the FIA, similarly to how they define DRS zones / DRS detection zones on the track maps.
  • Use VSC / speed-limiter-type solutions more liberally to prevent some of the gamesmanship that teams use in qualifying, under SC, on outlaps, etc.
  • Re-evaluate engine penalties so that they become more severe as more components are taken. At this point, the lack of penalty from replacing engines is undermining the goals of having a cost cap.

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u/Stressed_engineer Dec 07 '21

ditch the time penalties, and make them places. The lead cars are virtually immune to time penalties most of the time. +3 places would stop this shit immediately.

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u/DKindynzdtr Honda Dec 07 '21

This is a bit like how speedway racing in Aotearoa (New Zealand) is done. Contact that advances one's position makes for two place relegation; one place for the offense and one for the position gained.

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u/kRkthOr Red Bull Dec 07 '21

This.

A +X second penalty is useless when you're 30s ahead of everyone else.

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u/Baldandskinny George Russell Dec 06 '21

I don’t think it helps that max only has yes men around him

Max drives the way he does and it’s always “it’s hard racing” from Marko and Horner and when something bad happens it’s never his fault or just let them race

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u/irish786 Charles Leclerc Dec 06 '21

Really man I couldn’t believe Horner going to press after the race and saying ya you just gotta let them race. Man is so far in denial its almost like he’s scared Max would leave the team the moment he says Max made an error.

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u/time_to_reset Dec 07 '21

There will also no doubt be big bonuses tied to him bringing home another championship. Everyone involved is incentivised to win by whatever means necessary.

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u/zykzakk Alex Zanardi Dec 07 '21

I think you nailed the problem here. Red Bull kinda needs Verstappen since there's no driver on his level in their pipeline, and they already sacrificed Danny to keep Max (Baku 2018 was really when they should have shut Max's behaviour down)

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u/BrownSugarBare #WeSayNoToMazepin Dec 06 '21

Meanwhile, Lewis so much as says "he's not happy" about something and it's F1 news for two weeks that he's 'ungrateful'. The difference in treatment of these drivers is unbelievable sometimes.

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u/Bonxy Dec 06 '21

I listened to this earlier this morning and thought he’d hit the nail on the head here.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21 edited 26d ago

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u/GeneralOrdinance Hamilton vs Verstappen Dec 07 '21 edited Dec 07 '21

Fun fact: Lewis didn't even actually say that. The directors added **** for drama.

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u/mark_vorster Bernd Mayländer Dec 07 '21

oh what did he say?

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u/DN-es Dec 07 '21

"This guy's pretty crazy man"

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u/UnitedJaguar6564 Dec 07 '21

I thought he said "frickin"

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u/hopenoonefindsthis Love Is Love Dec 07 '21

Yeah that’s why the older I get the less I am impressed with Senna’s racing tactics.

They are both world class drivers. One of the greats the sport has ever seen. But I absolutely hate the way they race because it absolutely robs us as fans the potential amazing racing that we could have seen if they didn’t push their opponents off the tracks.

Max is certainly fast enough to fight without having to resort to this yield or crash mentality. And we have to stop glorifying Senna on this too.

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u/NykthosVess Formula 1 Dec 07 '21

"Every one of these incidents, he is putting his car in a position that is saying 'either I am going to exit this corner ahead, or neither of us are going to exit the corner', which is an impossible way to go racing with someone.

This is literally how people talk about senna's driving style and with great fondness about how ruthless he was on track.

I'm not making this comparison in the sense that verstappen is senna, but the way this is being discussed is incredibly hypocritical. We cant romanticize senna's attitude but at the same time get all up in arms about max's similar attitude and driving style. The amount of hypocrisy from the fans of this sport is wild.

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u/420YOL0NOSC0P3 Dec 06 '21

Spot on, it didn’t feel like racing watching Hamilton trying to overtake Verstappen, it’s more like bullying. I’m also disappointed by some F1 “fans” I’ve seen here suggesting AT & RB should four man dive bomb Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, that’s not what racing is about

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u/Hieillua Pirelli Wet Dec 07 '21

They act like they should tactical foul Hamilton like it's football. Absolutely insane.

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u/ralphonsob Dec 07 '21

The FIA need to take Max quietly aside, and inform him that if Abu Dahbi ends with him crashing with Lewis, they'll deal with it the same way as they did with Schumacher in 1997.

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u/emeksv Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 07 '21

I don't disagree, but if he wins it clean in the next race, none of this will matter. He'll just be remembered as the guy who denied Lewis his most important WDC. And either way, he's had a brilliant season. The thing he needs to think carefully about is that he's in the Michael Schumacher precedent position. Like Schumacher, he's pulled a number of controversial moves that have been largely ignored for the purpose of letting drivers race. But also like Schumacher, he's sort of used up his freebies. If he is judged to have even 51% caused a wreck this weekend that takes them both out, he might well be DSQd.

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u/fawkesandholly Dec 06 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

I think everything that Palmer says rings true. As a former driver I really appreciate his perspective. It’s also interesting to see other drivers like Massa agree and say that Max has crossed a line. Massa mentioned this in the post race F1 show.

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u/TheAwesomeCrazyMoth Graham Hill Dec 07 '21

The only reason I think people are defending Max is because he is battling Lewis who is unliked by a lot of others. Max has had run in's with others and they've alwasy been decisive. I'm thinking of Charles in Austira, Seb in Mexico and Daniel in Baku.

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u/Allekoren Dec 06 '21

I listened to this podcast today and I was a little surprised about how candid he was (I think usually he stops short of saying what he actually thinks) but it was totally refreshing and I have to say he is speaking a lot of sense.

Total contrast to DC on channel 4 who seems to think Max can do no wrong and that everything comes down to the ‘racing gods’. What a clown.

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u/littlebigcat Dec 06 '21

Coulthard is still affiliated to RBR isn't he? Horner still credits him a the most important RBR signing.

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u/T_elic Dec 06 '21

I am so conflicted. I don't want Hamilton to win the championship because i am so done with Mercedes winning everything for the entirety of the hybrid era, but on the other hand i'm not enjoying Max as a driver since... maybe Monza? A shame Perez couldn't have a stellar season and just win it.

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u/takemecowdaddy Alexander Albon Dec 06 '21

Look at it how I am - I don't care who wins any more. Either I see history being made on Sunday with Lewis Hamilton becoming 8x WDC or I see Max Verstappen end Mercedes reign. Still will be something cool to see and both drivers have had to fight for it.

My friend is supporting Lewis because he thinks it's poetic to end these regulations with his final win, then hopes it'll all shake up next year.

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u/greenslime300 McLaren Dec 07 '21

I got a bad feel Mercedes will be clearly on top next year and the only battle at the front will be Russell and Hamilton.

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u/elliebeans90 Daniel Ricciardo Dec 06 '21

In an ideal world I'd like someone else to win it. I'd like a non Merc win but don't like the idea of Max winning as I don't like his driving. As that's not going to happen I'm just going to hope Lewis does it again.

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u/DerMetzgerino Pirelli Hard Dec 06 '21

Well he is going to do that till he crashes and seriously hurts himself (i hope he doesn't) or he gets an absurd amount of a fine. Till then i see no point of this changing. I kinda wish he loses this chanpionship so he might learn when to defend and when there is no point in it.

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u/jcolsmart Dec 06 '21

It’s hard to say. I think he genuinely always thinks he’s in the right.

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u/RX0Invincible Ferrari Dec 06 '21

Even more so in this race. He's even using his DOTD vote to justify it

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u/veryangryenglishman Dec 06 '21

Yeah what did he say? "At least the fans care for racing" or whatever.

Ridiculous

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u/ehs5 Safety Car Dec 06 '21

He said the exact same thing on Instagram today. Ridiculous. I really use to like Verstappen but I’m not sure if I can ever respect him again after this.

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u/Mikeltee McLaren Dec 06 '21

My opinion of Max has completely flipped this season. I've wanted him to challenge Lewis, prove himself and win the title as next season is such an unknown and whether or not he could challenge for the championship again. Max has shown mature drives to show he's a champion in waiting, but some of his driving has been so aggressive and dangerous that I just want Lewis to win the title now. I felt the tide in this title race turned in Brazil and now Max is feeling the pressure and likely to pull more of these tricks.

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u/Amused-Observer Dec 06 '21

of Max has completely flipped this season.

He's finally had his opportunity to show the world who he really is as a race car driver.

He's ALWAYS been like this. I remember back in 2016 or 2017 when he was being criticized for how often he crashed into others that if he was going to change how he drives and he basically said "LOL NOPE"

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u/Herman-The-Tosser Charles Leclerc Dec 07 '21

I think a lot of people got this warped perception of Max because of last year. He had practically zero incidents last year because he did practically zero racing last year. He was in his own bubble behind the Mercs but way ahead of the midfield. So he was an underdog, and a clean underdog at that. Instant fan favourite. "He's matured!!!", they cried in unison. Now he's having to race wheel to wheel every weekend and we're seeing the same ol' Max from years ago. Attacking like he's entitled to more track, defending like the opposition isn't there, ignoring track limits as he pleases. Anything to either get ahead or stay ahead.

He hasn't changed, and as things stand he never will. He's surrounded by a team that borders on sycophantic. His Dad, Marko and Horner will all endlessly defend and excuse his recklessness. How can he learn from his mistakes when everybody close to him will without a doubt reassure him that he didn't even make one and that Hamilton, or Charles, or the FIA or the God damn Illuminati are to blame? The last time I can think of that he was even remotely criticised by one of them was Baku 2018, and even then they called it a 50/50 and made Danny Ricc take half the blame for what was clearly dangerous defending from Max. He's like a child actor, he just can't mature in an environment so pandering.

It's the single biggest reason I'm rooting for Lewis this year. Maybe, just maybe, losing a championship to a guy that demonstrates the value in knowing when to yield and stay in the fight will force Max to re-evaluate his stance. But if I'm honest I'm not holding my breath, not while he remains at Red Bull.

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u/davisguc Dec 06 '21

He blamed Lewis for Monza lol…. He has never in his entire career agreed that he was at fault for a crash or incident

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u/bigtice Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 06 '21

Because no one in an authoritative position has told him otherwise.

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u/bazpoint McLaren Dec 06 '21

I was just thinking earlier today that if Max raced in the 1970s he'd be dead or the other drivers would blacklist him out of the sport. There's no denying he's fantastically quick & talented, but it's a driving style that's only viable at all if you have a high faith in the safety of the cars or just don't give a shit about yourself or other drivers.

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